Religious Experience versus Mystical Experience

[Leftimies]

I've fallen into the habit of distinguishing between religious experiences and mystical experiences.

To me, a religious experience involves to some significant degree -- or in some significant way -- the symbols and/or concepts specific to a religion. For instance, an experience of seeing the Virgin Mary in the sky. The Virgin Mary is a symbol specific to only two religions that I know of -- Christianity and Islam.

Another point to make about religious experiences is that they seem to depend on familiarity with a specific religion. So, for instance, someone who has never once heard of Shiva is very unlikely to have an experience they identify as being an experience of Shiva.

A mystical experience, on the other hand, does not to any significant or crucial degree involve the symbols and/or concepts specific to a religion. For instance, an experience of the oneness of all things. That concept -- that there can be an experience of the oneness of all things -- seems to transcend all religions, rather than be specific to any one religion. That is, it is not only found in many or most religions, but is also found outside of any religion.

I am not saying there's no overlap between religious and mystical experiences, but merely that it would seem valid or useful to distinguish between the two.

Do you think the distinction between religious experiences and mystical experiences might be a valid or useful one? Why or why not?

EDIT: Just to be clear, I am not trying to assert that the distinction I'm making between religious and mystical experiences is the only legitimate way to sort or categorize those experiences. I'm certain there are many possible ways of doing that, and to insist that only one of those ways is valid strikes me as akin to asserting that a car cannot be categorized as both a "vehicle" and a "status symbol" because -- for some obscure reason -- it can only be either a vehicle or a status symbol, but not both.

Both are the same thing. Religious Experience is just a Mystical Experience interpreted from the viewpoint and context of one's cultural background.

 

[cafecorridor]

Again, Misdirection.

Just answer the question that I've now asked you 3 times to answer.
Or admit that you were misinformed.

You want me to give you evidence regarding my claim that the concept of union of God is incompatible with the Christian scriptures. The evidence is all around - just pick up a copy of the Bible and read it. Do you expect me to quote every verse of the Bible and then explain it's meaning to you? Neither of us can and should engage in such an exercise. So I make it simple for both you and me and request you AGAIN for the nth time to do the following -

Refer a translation of the Bible (pre-20th century) to me that explains mysticism/enlightenment/union as you describe it. I will then read it and try to figure out how mysticism is compatible with the 9 beliefs of Christianity that I've listed above. Again - I'm willing to shed my ignorance but for that you'll have to give me some time and reading material.

Let me be blunt. You are clueless to what you level criticism against. Have you ever had any mystical experience at all? If you have, then lets talk about that, rather than your trying to piece together some metal puzzle in your head. Without any Taste of that which transcends any definitions in your mind, you will ever and only be batting at something in your head which is nothing but just that. Let me know if you have anything to bring to the table by way of personal experience so we can have a discussion. If not, well, it's all just theory to you, right? In which case, how do you know anything in this area?

Something for you my friend. Enjoy!

[youtube]4yz6ZL-TC94[/youtube]

 

[Windwalker]

Before I waste my time watching whatever you posted from Youtube, have you had any mystical experience yourself? Yes? No?

 

[Thana]

You want me to give you evidence regarding my claim that the concept of union of God is incompatible with the Christian scriptures. The evidence is all around - just pick up a copy of the Bible and read it. Do you expect me to quote every verse of the Bible and then explain it's meaning to you? Neither of us can and should engage in such an exercise. So I make it simple for both you and me and request you AGAIN for the nth time to do the following -

Refer a translation of the Bible (pre-20th century) to me that explains mysticism/enlightenment/union as you describe it. I will then read it and try to figure out how mysticism is compatible with the 9 beliefs of Christianity that I've listed above. Again - I'm willing to shed my ignorance but for that you'll have to give me some time and reading material.

In other words, You can't provide anything to back up your point and you're too proud to admit you're wrong.

And you do realize that different bible translations are not completely different bibles? What you find in one is not going to be something entirely different in another.

The bible speaks about the Holy Spirit numerous times, About demons and mediums, of being God's children, Of one flesh, of prayer and fasting, of dying to yourself,
I mean there are too many examples to list of how Mysticism is compatible, even intergral to Christian beliefs.

If you want somewhere to start, Give me one, Just one example of how it is not, And we can have an actual debate.

 

[cafecorridor]

In other words, You can't provide anything to back up your point and you're too proud to admit you're wrong.

And you do realize that different bible translations are not completely different bibles? What you find in one is not going to be something entirely different in another.

The bible speaks about the Holy Spirit numerous times, About demons and mediums, of being God's children, Of one flesh, of prayer and fasting, of dying to yourself,
I mean there are too many examples to list of how Mysticism is compatible, even intergral to Christian beliefs.

If you want somewhere to start, Give me one, Just one example of how it is not, And we can have an actual debate.

Never mind. You'll never find mysticism in any of the Bibles!

Before I waste my time watching whatever you posted from Youtube, have you had any mystical experience yourself? Yes? No?

Unlike Jesus I've had mystical experiences

 

[Windwalker]

Unlike Jesus I've had mystical experiences

Troll.


On ignore.

 

[cafecorridor]

I have yet to read the two "Being" books by Mr. Malhotra-ji. I have read wonderful reviews. It seems that the two "Being" books discuss at length how Western misappropriation of Indic, or better yet, Dharmic, philosophical and religious notions have led to a recalcitrance of seemingly almost-hostile disregard of the Indic/Dharmic origins of those notions, and how the West has now [re]molded them, repackaging them into what many rationalists would describe as an after-product but now sold under the auspices of new fabricators - to put it meekly. Another great concern at length that Mr. Malhotra-ji addresses and analyzes is how the Western[-based] Academia of South Asian Studies has somehow monopolized the study of Hinduism and South Asian History and indirectly detests making concessions of acknowledgement to either the voices of native Indians or directly labels [quite prematurely] any expression of discord with how the West, in their own established pedestal as the sole masters of explaining and teaching and harnessing the Dharmic religious and philosophical notions of the Subcontinent, conducts its "academic" and "spiritual" dealings and misappropriations of these Indic notions as Hindutva - the once seemingly benign characterization of Hindu pride now uttered and charged by the West upon Hindus proud of their identity in a similar fashion as to how the Western Media indirectly purports all Muslims as terrorists. In simpler terms: when non-Western academicians of the world, not just those of India, pinpoint the underlying tone of racism, bigotry, xenophobia, anti-Hindu, anti-Indian, and pro-Christianism of Western Academicians of South Asian Studies, the Western academicians quickly label these "pin-pointings" as bred from Hindutva without giving it too much thought. What's even more odd is when Western Christian Indologists that differ from the mainstream accolades are also labelled Hindutva-vadins when they aren't even near such identification (see Kazanas, Thomson, and Bryant). The future of Indology and South Asian Studies in the West is bleak and dark. This is why most Indians in the West opt for the business world and/or the medical world.

You're spot on with your assessment. Do watch the video I'm sharing with you now and things will be a lot more clearer

Rajiv Malhotra's Lecture on U-Turn Theory at Lady Sri Ram College, Delhi

[youtube]8RSu4ymCgp4[/youtube]
Rajiv Malhotra's Lecture on U-Turn Theory at Lady Sri Ram College, Delhi - YouTube

 

[cafecorridor]

Troll.


On ignore.

See what the real troll said - I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

 

[Thana]

Never mind. You'll never find mysticism in any of the Bibles!



Unlike Jesus I've had mystical experiences

Thanks for wasting my time
My fault I suppose, I actually thought you were serious.

 

[NobodyYouKnow]

I swore I would unsub from this...I swore...

It seems that having mystical experiences is the 'flavour of the week' now.

Sunstone asked me if I could possibly 'not generalise' in my categorisation of a mystical experience.

So, the question must be asked, do people believe anybody and everybody who has ever said they have had one?

If there aren't certain 'characteristics' of this common to most/all mystical experiences, how can we tell if that person is genuine, or a 'genuine liar'?

I mean, there must be something there, or else mystical experiences just wouldn't exist, amirite?

I am also guilty of rattling this all off from my brainbox, but if I had to speak from elsewhere, you'd get this:

 

[cafecorridor]

Thanks for wasting my time
My fault I suppose, I actually thought you were serious.

Yeah. I'm serious. Refer me one translation of the Bible (pre-20th century) that explains union with God. Can't find one? Run for your life then

 

[Sunstone]

Thanks for wasting my time
My fault I suppose, I actually thought you were serious.

It happens. He looked serious enough at first.

So, cup of tea? Let's move on to the next one.

 

[cafecorridor]

I'm quite familiar with the U-Turn Theory. I wrote a paper on it a couple semesters back. If U-Turn Theory needs to be summarized in a matter of a couple or few words: Christian Yoga. That should do the trick. Misappropriation, misapplication, misdirection, mishandling, and taking undue advantage of social, political, and economic situations of the Subcontinent in order to market or fraud something that already exists into a newer paradigm-existence either for money or for "spiritual renewal" of something inherently being left for dead in the West (Western Christianity).

Pick something up. Re-polish it. Sell it or market it as something totally different even though outside eyes can see the "it" for what it truly and originally is: not yours. Rationalists and left-wing economists will evaluate this phenomena as Neo-Colonialism.

Spot on again. I'm impressed

It happens. He looked serious enough at first.

So, cup of tea? Let's move on to the next one.

Don't hurt so much Jesus fan boy. Just follow the Bible and your judgement day will be just fine. Happy eternal life in heaven

 

[Sees]

I swore I would unsub from this...I swore...

It seems that having mystical experiences is the 'flavour of the week' now.

Sunstone asked me if I could possibly 'not generalise' in my categorisation of a mystical experience.

So, the question must be asked, do people believe anybody and everybody who has ever said they have had one?

If there aren't certain 'characteristics' of this common to most/all mystical experiences, how can we tell if that person is genuine, or a 'genuine liar'?

I mean, there must be something there, or else mystical experiences just wouldn't exist, amirite?

I am also guilty of rattling this all off from my brainbox, but if I had to speak from elsewhere, you'd get this:

If we could bottle and label such things, no longer would they be mystical.

 

[NobodyYouKnow]

If we could bottle and label such things, no longer would they be mystical.

Yet, it would lead to a person believing they can do whatever they like and still have a mystical experience. I don't know why, but this just doesn't seem right to me.

If Hitler claimed to have a mystical experience that told him to do all that bad stuff, was it a mystical experience?

If I could attain moksha by eating beef, having sex, taking drugs, watching TV, telling god to go to hell...I mean, that would be so easy, wouldn't it?

 

[Sunstone]

If we could bottle and label such things, no longer would they be mystical.

True. And besides, what purpose does labeling serve? If you have such an experience, your experience isn't changed in any positive sense by placing a label on it. And it might even be changed in some negative sense: placing a label on it might help you become emotionally attached to your experience, which could prevent you from having any more such experiences.

"Hey, look, Ma! I just had a Class 1A Mystical Experience! I'm so special now!"

"That's fine, girl. Now go do the laundry."

 

[NobodyYouKnow]

"Hey look Ma, I just did a huge poo!".

"That's fine, girl. Now go do the laundry".

I think it's a case where we all have different 'schools of thought' in regards to all this and never the twain shall meet.

I mean, I can even order a 'mystical experience' online if I part with $100 or so. The term has been bandied about so much, it can include anything from a weak orgasm to the experience of Brahman.

The experience of Brahman is the only 'mystical experience' in my mind (or not), so, despite what I thought yesterday (I was trying to keep an open mind about it), there is only one ultimate mystical experience - the realization of the absolute and everything else is just bulldust.

 

[Sees]

"Hey look Ma, I just did a huge poo!".

"That's fine, girl. Now go do the laundry".

I think it's a case where we all have different 'schools of thought' in regards to all this and never the twain shall meet.

I mean, I can even order a 'mystical experience' online if I part with $100 or so. The term has been bandied about so much, it can include anything from a weak orgasm to the experience of Brahman.

The experience of Brahman is the only 'mystical experience' in my mind (or not), so, despite what I thought yesterday (I was trying to keep an open mind about it), there is only one ultimate mystical experience - the realization of the absolute and everything else is just bulldust.

This would be the transcendent, ineffable absolute like a head's side of a coin. Any absolute and we are stepping in it everyday, smelling it, breathing it.

People will confuse moments of great calm and clarity with what may or may not be....may be a psychological itch that got scratched.

 

[NobodyYouKnow]

Instead of 'Ceiling Cat', you can put 'Mystical Experience' or 'Shiva' and maybe get 'the Pope' to sign it...

I must print off a few of these and start handing them out.

I'm pretty much done anyway. There's nothing I can say that I haven't already, but at least one thing...

If I was ever in any doubt about what a 'mystical experience' was before, I am not now.

So, I learned something.

 

[Sunstone]

Both are the same thing. Religious Experience is just a Mystical Experience interpreted from the viewpoint and context of one's cultural background.

I'm not sure how that would actually work in practice. For instance, some people say it's a religious experience for them to have the feelings of warmth and acceptance they experience while praying with their church congregation on Sundays. But they do not claim their experience involves anything more unusual than heightened emotions. That is, they don't describe it as, say, a radical change in their awareness. Can you explain how that religious experience is "just a mystical experience interpreted from the viewpoint and context of one's cultural background"?