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Featured Religious and Believers Only What Miracles are For.

Discussion in 'Same Faith Debates' started by Brickjectivity, Jul 27, 2020.

  1. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    The following is a link to a testimony of a miracle.

    God led Christian doctor in Texas to Covid cure | God Reports

    Notice that its entirely deniable by us. God gives him the cure, but somebody else already has the cure in another part of the world. He knows God has helped him, but there's no way any of us can see it as a proof. I'd go so far as to suggest that if somebody else hadn't come up with the cure then God wouldn't have let him have it, because it would have become proof.

    I think this is and example of the nature of miracles. They are never proofs of the supernatural. Maybe they are possible and are supernatural but may not reveal the supernatural. In the above case the doctor clearly believes he's been miraculously assisted, but he's not permitted to prove it.


    What in your experience are miracles for?
     
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  2. Rival

    Rival Veteran Member
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    It's G-d showing off.
     
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  3. Windwalker

    Windwalker Integralist
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    I would not necessarily attribute what this Dr. had experienced as "miraculous" per se. I believe all humans have the ability to "tap into" a level of consciousness that goes beyond simply one's own thoughts and ideas. I believe we can access knowledge of others in a sort of "collective unconscious" sense. It's a matter of "receptivity", which is something which can be cultivated in us.

    For most, that sounds supernatural, but the experience is repeatable. What he describes he experienced, long 48 hour shift, intense focus of intention with prayer, and a letting go of trying to "figure it out" on his own, places him in a state where such a thing can happen. And lo and behold, sure enough, others had figured it out as well. We can "pick up" on things, in this non-ordinary way, I believe.

    As far as "miracles" go, I think that's along the same lines. It's simply non-ordinary to normal consciousness conditioned by our systems of language and ideas which limit our perceptions of reality. We filter out what doesn't easily fit into that perceived reality. The human mind will not recognize it as something that fits into normal reality, and hence respond to it as "miraculous," if it's powerful enough to overcome our normal filters of what we consider real or not real. In reality, if our minds are allowed to see, all of reality itself is all miraculous, or "magical" in a very real sense, not just as a metaphor.

    If I were to say what I thought miracles were "for", I think I'd say they serve to help us realize that there is something more to reality than our ideas and systems of belief about it. You could say they help deconstruct it a little for us, and as such our consciousness becomes larger and more perceptive of the interconnectedness, and the holistic nature of reality, with forces we can only in our normal awareness see through a glass darkly. You can call them a "peak experience" of sorts.

    But beware of nonsense claims. "God miraculously fill my gas tank through prayer". Yeah. No.
     
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  4. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    Ok.

    In theory suppose you encountered an actual miracle. Say you broke your leg, but then you felt an invisible touch and the leg come back together. You could tell everyone about it, but they wouldn't believe you. What would that miracle be for?
     
  5. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    I think miracles happen just so people can go 'Hmmm, maybe," or in dramatic cases, to turn lives, from the 'Uh-oh, maybe I should take a better look at this." So they're just potential catalysts for folks who are searching for meaning.

    But I don't get the all agog over a miracle crowd either.
     
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  6. sun rise

    sun rise "This is the Hour of God"
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    The vast majority are just yogis and others showing off. I've quoted the great Sufi Rabia a bunch, so this time I'll note the biography of Milarepa who used occult powers to cause destruction of an enemy. And I'll note this story:

    The Master was one day by the river’s edge, waiting for one of the little ferry boats that take passengers across the stream for the diminutive fare of one anna. A yogi, seeing him thus waiting, came up to him, literally walked across the river and back, and said, ‘That was much easier, was it not?’ The Master smilingly replied, ‘Yes, and had less value than that of the boat fare – one anna.”


    There are rare times when the Avatar, the Christ performs miracles for the spiritual benefit of humanity but only when necessary.
     
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  7. George-ananda

    George-ananda Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
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    I think there can be multiple reasons for miracles. My first thought is the doctor was inspired by a being from the spiritual plane to help the doctor and his patients.

    I don't think the main intent was to prove the existence of God or the supernatural.
     
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  8. Terry Sampson

    Terry Sampson Well-Known Member

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    You need to get out of your "anti-christianity" closet more often. The universe is a lot bigger and more marvelous than you think.
     
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  9. syo

    syo Well-Known Member

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    But... I only HEAR words about miracles. Words can be anything.

    I never saw a miracle.
     
  10. syo

    syo Well-Known Member

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    A little update.

    MAYBE I saw a miracle. What IS a miracle anyway?
     
  11. Terry Sampson

    Terry Sampson Well-Known Member

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    One doesn't have to be a Christian or believe in Christianity in order to believe that they have seen a miracle.
    :D Your last post is a miracle.

    Screenshot_2020-07-27 miracle definition - Google Search.png Screenshot_2020-07-27 Definition of miracle Dictionary com.png Screenshot_2020-07-27 Definition of MIRACLE.png
     
  12. Windwalker

    Windwalker Integralist
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    I probably wouldn't tell everyone because they wouldn't believe it. It would serve no purpose for them. What it would be for, would be for me, I suppose.
     
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  13. Terry Sampson

    Terry Sampson Well-Known Member

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    The Cosmos just ****ing with your mind?
     
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  14. Terry Sampson

    Terry Sampson Well-Known Member

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  15. Power Stone

    Power Stone Unknown Member

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    "It's metaphorical"
    -Taserface
     
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  16. KenS

    KenS Veteran Member
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    I think that the word "miracle" is used a little loose here. Technically, a miracle is when the natural course of events is unexplainably changed, like a person who is on a death bed and then the next day they are completely whole.

    Technically, what the doctor experienced was more of what is called "a word of knowledge" where God unlocks a specific word for His purposes.

    A personal example. When I was considering selling electronic typewriters (Canon) that would also act as a printer for a standalone computer, I gave it a one month trial where I would sell two days a week and asked God if it was His will.

    I reached an "L shaped" commercial center with individual businesses. I got out of my car with product in hand and walked about 30 feet towards the businesses and said to myself "These little businesses can't afford d $2,300 electronic typewriter". So I turned around and headed back to my car.

    As I walked I began to worship God and closed my eyes for a couple of seconds. When I closed my eyes I saw words in an arc shaped. I turned around (in disbelief to be honest with you) I saw an insurance company with its name in an arc shape.

    Lo and behold, when I entered in, I found they were about to close on a competitors electronic typewrite (Olivetti). They bought mine and it was an answer to my question of whether or not He wanted me to take a jump in a new field.

    That is called a "word of Knowledge" in Christian terms.

    It is said that George Washing Carver asked God to show him the mysteries of the Universe and God replied that his mind was too small to grasp the mysteries of the Universe. Then God said, "But I will show you the mysteries of a peanut" and God unravelled the mysteries to his mind and saved the farms of the south.

    Word of Knowledge.

    But I believe that God does intervene with miracles.
     
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  17. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein Ov Fire and the Void
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    I'm skeptical about literal miracles, but certainly believe God can do whatever He wants. I just think the stories of Jesus healing sick and raising the dead are more helpful when viewed as metaphors for what we should do for each other.
     
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  18. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    I guess that if this is so successful in other countries, then why is it not standard practice in all countries?
    If the stats reveal that its a valid option, why aren't all the hospitals using it? Its not life threatening and the drugs are already approved. Zinc is also freely available. So....what's the problem?

    I don't think that we can discount the fact that this doctor may well have heard about this subliminally from some source that he is not aware of. I'm sure that God doesn't single out countries or states or even specific doctors to work a miracle....especially when said countries do not identify as "Christian" nations.

    My personal take, according to my own studies of the Bible are that the Bible's miracles are very different to what is witnessed in this day and age.

    Going back to Bible times, what miracles do we see performed and with what result?

    Pre-Christian times had their own kinds of miracles...e.g. the Israelite's liberation from Egypt was accompanied by 10 plagues which devastated the land of Egypt because a proud Pharaoh refused to comply with God request to send his people away so that they may worship him. Then after their release, the parting of the Red Sea was a monumental miracle, and thereafter the pillar of cloud and the pillar of fire guided Israel for 40 years in the wilderness.

    There were also smaller scale miracles like Naa'man the chief of the Syrian army who had his leprosy cured by a little Israelite servant girl sending him to God's prophet Elisha to cure him of his leprosy. This man was not an Israelite, and initially his pride was challenged when firstly Elisha would not meet him in person and perform the said miracle, and secondly he was told to bathe 7 times in Israel's Jordan River. He initially refused to comply. But one of his servants said that if the prophet had told him to do something difficult, wouldn't he have done it?.....then why not something simple?
    So Naa'man washed himself in the Jordan seven times and was cured. The result?...

    "Then his flesh was restored like the flesh of a little boy, and he became clean.

    15 After that he went back to the man of the true God, he and all his entourage, and he stood before him and said: “Now I know that there is no God anywhere in all the earth but in Israel." (2 Kings 5:14-15)


    Yet why this man and not others? Jesus recounted, after his own people had failed to acknowledge him........
    "So he said: “Truly I tell you that no prophet is accepted in his home territory. 25 For instance, I tell you in truth: There were many widows in Israel in the days of E·liʹjah when heaven was shut up for three years and six months, and a great famine came on all the land. 26 Yet E·liʹjah was sent to none of those women, but only to a widow in Zarʹe·phath in the land of Siʹdon. 27 Also, there were many lepers in Israel in the time of E·liʹsha the prophet; yet not one of them was cleansed, only Naʹa·man the Syrian.” (Luke 4:23-27)

    God obviously had his reasons for these "one-off" miracles but they are not stated.

    Moving along to Christianity, there were many miracles associated with Jesus and his apostles.
    But why were they needed? God used miracles to demonstrate to the Jews that his favor had now shifted from apostate Judaism to the new the disciples of his son, who were all originally Jewish. Since the Pharisees had departed from true worship in favor of substituting man-made traditions, it had been a long time since Israel had seen any miracles.

    Mark 7:6-8...
    "He [Jesus] said to them [the Pharisees]: “Isaiah aptly prophesied about you hypocrites, as it is written, ‘This people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far removed from me. 7 It is in vain that they keep worshipping me, for they teach commands of men as doctrines.8 You let go of the commandment of God and cling to the tradition of men.”

    The miracles of the first century had one thing in common...every one of them pictured a feature of life in the coming Kingdom of God. Healing the sick, curing physical deformities, the blind seeing, the deaf hearing, raising the dead, speaking in different languages....all will be seen on a grand scale when God's Kingdom rules mankind.

    The miracles were merely a foregleam of what was to come....but they were not to last. Why?

    Paul explained at 1 Corinthians 13:8-13, after describing what love is and what it isn't, he said.....
    "But if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away with; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away with. 9 For we have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially, 10 but when what is complete comes, what is partial will be done away with. 11 When I was a child, I used to speak as a child, to think as a child, to reason as a child; but now that I have become a man, I have done away with the traits of a child. . . .Now, however, these three remain: faith, hope, love; but the greatest of these is love."

    So the need to see miracles is associated with spiritual infancy. It is a good start but not a firm enough foundation to build a strong, mature faith. Now we need a more solid foundation...."faith, hope and love"...something that cannot be feigned or faked. We noticed in Egyptian times when Moses and Aaron performed their miracles before Pharaoh, that his magic-pracricing priests were able to do their miracles too, but not with God's power. So the devil is able to do "tricks' as well, just not up to the standard that Jesus and his apostles could do. Those who rely on miracles today can so easily be misled by the devil, which is why our Christianity must be identified by those three important aspects of our faith.

    To have attended a miracle faith-healing session and to come away with no cure can be devastating to a person's faith...they often come away feeling very disappointed that God did not consider them worthy of a miracle. That is faith destroying...not faith building. Others find that their cure did not last. Others may have experienced the placebo effect rather than an actual miracle.

    That is not to say that God no longer performs 'miracles'.....he just doesn't do them like he did in the first century......there were no failures back then...and all who came to be cured were healed completely.

    Today he gives us very personal little 'miracles' that includes taking us through difficult times with our faith renewed, instead of depleted. Our hope in the Kingdom is restored with wonderful pictures of the future that see past the present foretold calamities. It is also seen in the love displayed in a global brotherhood who all have the same beliefs, and the same hope, and who support one another in practical ways. Its a truly beautiful thing IMO.
     
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  19. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    Miracles. I believe they are primarily today used as tools to win and maintain the membership of gullible and naive people who are very easily conned. I’m not saying the Prophets of God did not perform them only that they have been blown out of all proportion and misused.

    Miracles in my opinion are very childish and immature and are one reason religion is failing to solve current day problems because they wait for miracles.

    Miracles I also believe , have created in religious people a ‘sense of entitlement’ that God will do everything for them and they won’t have to lift even a finger.

    So the world goes from bad to worse and who lifts a finger to create a better and more just system for humanity to live under? Why when the Kingdom of God is just going to descend from heaven and we will all live happily ever after?

    My colleagues and I work very hard to try and create a better world but workers are so few because so many we invite are just waiting for a miracle, the Kingdom of God, to fall out of the sky.
     
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  20. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Since mankind has never been able to institute a successful system of governance, what do you believe is the solution? Even when the Jews has their land gifted to them and laws to govern their everyday lives, they still couldn't get it right....why do you think they failed? Was it God's failure or theirs?

    Again, why do you think you fail when you have such good motives?
    What is God waiting for? What is his promised Kingdom and how does it "come" in the Baha'i view?
    What will it accomplish?
     
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