religiosity and/or strength of religious belief is associated with less intelligence

[Audie]

That is somewhat tautological. What is intelligence and how do we identify it?

There is no rigorous way to quantify intelligence, just arbitrarily selected mental capabilities.

You might be able to quantify certain types of reasoning ability in a vacuum, but better reasoning ability also enables you to reason your way into holding stupid beliefs, and reason your way out of accepting any evidence that you dislike (see cited scientific studies above).

"Intelligence" also makes it easier for us to acquire and apply false information (anti-knowledge).

"Intelligence" is not wisdom, and wisdom is the only thing that really counts whether it comes from experience, intelligence, common sense or something else..



That just as "common sense" can lead to stupid beliefs, so can "intelligence".

It seems to me that psychology must be a lot harder than
physics, as so little progress has been made.

I think we all can agree that some people are stupid, and
others very smart. You can see it in dogs too.

Hard to define, hard to measure does not of course
mean it is not there.

 

[syo]

On the track to what, we wonder. ( )

What is life?

 

[Audie]

What is life?

I kinda did not think you knew.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Makes sense, depending a bit on what you mean.

How about literate people with access to google.

You see you explain it all that your understanding and knowledge is limited

 

[Audie]

You see you explain it all that your understanding and knowledge is limited

I see you are not only being evasive, but trying
to turn my question around and make it about me.

It is ok, believing in noahs ark is not very smart,
and is withal an embarrassment. Good topic for
spiritual folks to avoid.

 

[Augustus]

It seems to me that psychology must be a lot harder than
physics, as so little progress has been made.

I think we all can agree that some people are stupid, and
others very smart. You can see it in dogs too.

Hard to define, hard to measure does not of course
mean it is not there.

I agree you can identify wisdom, but only via observation not measurement.

Wisdom is only revealed by actions over time, not by IQ tests or exam results and not by actions in the short-medium term. A person's wisdom might not even be apparent until long after their death.

It may also apply only to a single aspect of their thought, and in others they could be somewhat lacking.

 

[Faithofchristian]

I see you are not only being evasive, but trying
to turn my question around and make it about me.

It is ok, believing in noahs ark is not very smart,
and is withal an embarrassment. Good topic for
spiritual folks to avoid.

Not believing in Noah's ark, only shows how limited in your understanding and knowledge really goes.

Further more your the one whos turning my question around and make it about Noah's ark.

When Noah's ark has nothing to do with the Thread or the questions at hand.

 

[Audie]

I kinda did not think you knew.

Ok,sy, I gots to know. Funny because you saw the
double entendre or coz you did not?

 

[BilliardsBall]

The general scientific consensus(1) shows religiosity and the strength of religious belief is associated with less IQ. The procedure and and materials needed for these studies seem fairly simple to perform. Gather a bunch of people, have them do an IQ test, or similar, and then ask how religious they are or the intensity of their belief. Consistently, participants that score higher on the religious scale will rank lower in IQ. However, it's not just limited to IQ; more recent research demonstrates less analytic cognition and less scientific and mathematical knowledge. So, as an example for this topic, Kanazawa(2) performed a study with 15,197 Americans. He found, on a 1-4 scale(1 = not religious, 4 = very religious) that IQ decreased, on average 6 points, per scale.

This question is for theists, but atheists may respond.
Why do you think religiosity and/or strength of religious belief negatively correlates with IQ?


References

(1) http://emilkirkegaard.dk/en/wp-cont...a-Analysis-and-Some-Proposed-Explanations.pdf

(2) http://personal.lse.ac.uk/kanazawa/pdfs/spq2010.pdf

That's nonsense, in the light of the fact that most of the great ones through all history have been religious, and now...

What may throw off findings is that atheists tend to be highly intelligent, and as the Bible says, this high intelligence leads to life sorrow and to pride, therefore... atheism... apatheism... depression.... suffering...

Dumb people can go to Heaven, too, get over it, skeptics!

 

[Audie]

I agree you can identify wisdom, but only via observation not measurement.

Wisdom is only revealed by actions over time, not by IQ tests or exam results and not by actions in the short-medium term. A person's wisdom might not even be apparent until long after their death.

It may also apply only to a single aspect of their thought, and in others they could be somewhat lacking.

Wisdom will not get you a good score on the LSAT.

Intelligence wont either.

Memorizing is worthless.

A good IQ, plenty of energy, and, suitable preparation
is the key.

 

[Quintessence]

If there is a problem with the methodology, I'd be keenly interested.

"Problem" isn't really the word I would use. The meaning and applicability of all research is limited by its methodology is all. For example, if studies use a coarse or imprecise framework for what "religious" means (or that framework is strongly biased towards a particular type of religion) that's not as useful as if various factors were parsed out and examined more independently. That is what I'm interested in, personally, because anything can be considered religion/religious.

I'd like to think that anything truthful has some merit. Correlation is always tricky and that's why special care should always be used. For instance, the first post was about health and the association with religiosity, which funnily enough was not called trolling.

Presenting something in the positive versus presenting it in the negative makes a big difference. Having been around RF for a while, usually when someone brings up this argument they're not doing it in an objective fashion like you are. I don't feel like you posted this to be a jerk about it, but I've seen that angle often enough that it leaves a very sour taste in my mouth. It gets thrown about by anti-religious folk to rationalize their whole "we want to destroy all religion and enlighten the masses" mentality. And honestly? I don't see where this line of inquiry goes other than such directions. If you are seeing positive value to such a line of inquiry - aside from knowledge for knowledge's sake - please do share.

 

[Audie]

Not believing in Noah's ark, only shows how limited in your understanding and knowledge really goes.

Ah so desu ka, to you understanding and knowledge mean
to believe something even though it is not true, because
your chosen religious ideology calls on you to be both
intellectually dishonest, and ignorant?

Or are you saying I know far too much to fall for a
silly fairy tale.

 

[viole]

The general scientific consensus(1) shows religiosity and the strength of religious belief is associated with less IQ. The procedure and and materials needed for these studies seem fairly simple to perform. Gather a bunch of people, have them do an IQ test, or similar, and then ask how religious they are or the intensity of their belief. Consistently, participants that score higher on the religious scale will rank lower in IQ. However, it's not just limited to IQ; more recent research demonstrates less analytic cognition and less scientific and mathematical knowledge. So, as an example for this topic, Kanazawa(2) performed a study with 15,197 Americans. He found, on a 1-4 scale(1 = not religious, 4 = very religious) that IQ decreased, on average 6 points, per scale.

This question is for theists, but atheists may respond.
Why do you think religiosity and/or strength of religious belief negatively correlates with IQ?


References

(1) http://emilkirkegaard.dk/en/wp-cont...a-Analysis-and-Some-Proposed-Explanations.pdf

(2) http://personal.lse.ac.uk/kanazawa/pdfs/spq2010.pdf

That might indicate that I had a lower IQ in my 20s than now. Does not seem very plausible.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Faithofchristian]

Ah so desu ka, to you understanding and knowledge mean
to believe something even though it is not true, because
your chosen religious ideology calls on you to be both
intellectually dishonest, and ignorant?

Or are you saying I know far too much to fall for a
silly fairy tale.

Who says it not true, you. Your understanding and knowledge is limited.

 

[Augustus]

Wisdom will not get you a good score on the LSAT.

And wanting to be a lawyer is probably not a great signifier of wisdom

 

[Audie]

And wanting to be a lawyer is probably not a great signifier of wisdom

Haha.
In general, you are correct.

If a person gets into a top law school,
and then is one of the best students,
their prospects are practically unlimited.
Starting salary is near 200K.

A mediocre student at a low ranking
law school is going to be sor-ry!

 

[Rational Agnostic]

I've reported this post as assaultive and needlessly abusive.

I'm not a moderator of course, but I certainly don't see this post as "abusive." The OP is citing scientific studies, with results that you apparently don't like. He is not saying that being religious automatically makes someone less intelligent, or even that there is a causitive relationship. He is simply pointing out a correlation between religiosity, and lower IQ. This is fair game for discussion.

 

[Audie]

Who says it not true, you. Your understanding and knowledge is limited.

Of course my understanding is limited.
That is true of everyone.

But-

You are still trying to make this about me.

It is not "just" me saying it, of course, but
any / every well informed and intellectually
honest person on planet earth.

If you find it intelligent to go with your chosen
ideology over all relevant data as well as that
well worn "common sense" thing. then you've
a very eccentric idea of what knowledge, understanding
and intelligence is.

 

[oldbadger]

What people like to think of as common sense
leads them betimes into a lot of mistakes. Or stupidity.
.

Yes....... That reminds me of other conversations that we have had. About daft things and silly mistakes.

Yep,........

 

[Audie]

Yes....... That reminds me of other conversations that we have had. About daft things and silly mistakes.

Yep,........

Do try to keep it under control.