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Religions outside the Christian Church

Discussion in 'Christianity DIR' started by SpiritualSon, May 17, 2004.

  1. Mr Spinkles

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    So God only loves those who love Him back? I thought true love was unconditional. Luke 6:32 "For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them."


    Lots of people, not just Christians, help others because they love them.
    What if someone is moral because he/she loves that which is morally good?
    Isn't God, by definition, all that is good?
    In loving that which is good, doesn't one love God, then?
    If someone does what is right in the name of right, isn't that the same as doing what is right in the name of God--since God is all that is right?
     
  2. LCMS Sprecher

    LCMS Sprecher Member

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    If you say that someone can get into heaven through their good deeds then anyone can get into heaven. However, this is not possible because we can never do enough to earn our own salvation. It is impossible to do so. Holy Scripture says that we are saved through faith in the grace of God poured out to us via the sacrifice of his Son, Jesus Christ, on the cross. If you do not belief this, then you are damned. Therefore, it is not possible for other religious types to be saved due to their denial of Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour. This is the Christian faith.
     
  3. martha dodge

    martha dodge Member

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    Mr. Sprinkles, you make the greatest case for everyone to be Christian and to follow Jesus that I have ever heard and you seem to be trying so hard not too.
    Father God is the only daddy I have ever known and I no longer have my mother so it is just me and my Father. He sent my brother, Jesus, the only one I have also, down to make it possible for me to live and love in this mess we call earth until He gets my home ready in Heaven. My Father never does anything that is not best for me. My Father is always right in everything He says. He has never lied to me in 60 years. My blessed brother Jesus, took the bullet meant for me from satan, who wanted to condemn me to Hell. Have I got a great family or what. Why would any reasonable person turn that down? You got any ideas?
     
  4. Mr Spinkles

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    martha--

    If someone came up to you and said that the Unicorn King wants to wisk you away to lollypop land to live with the unicorns, and all you have to do is believe in him for this to happen, how would you respond? Would you fall to your knees and profess belief in the Unicorn King? After all, I am sure no reasonable person would turn down this offer...right?

    A reasonable person can look at the evidence and weigh it objectively to figure out whether or not it is true, rather than wanting it to be true so badly that his judgement is clouded, and his mind already made up before the opposing arguments are seen. Martha, look again at the questions in my previous post. Doesn't this mean that moral atheists would get into heaven?

    Also one last thing--I am not trying hard not to be Christian (it is actually quite easy once you learn to think for yourself :mrgreen: ) I am simply asking some (hopefully) provocative questions that may get people to think about things.
     
  5. quick

    quick Member

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    Christianity teaches that you are saved by grace, not by works. All men are sinners, so no one--no one-lives a "moral" live. We are in fact incapable of it, as we have all inherited Adam's sin-nature and deserve death.

    Read Ephesians 2, posted below:

    1As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature[1] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved. 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

    Christianity is unique in that it teaches that we are saved/made rigtheous/achieve nirnana/approach the diety/etc./ by God's grace, not by our own good works and efforts.
     
  6. anders

    anders Well-Known Member

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    As I have understood them, salvation through grace alone is Lutheran, while Catholcs believe that you can contribute yourself towards salvation through your deeds.
     
  7. Mr Spinkles

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    Wouldn't the Christian view of a loving God give all humans His grace, thereby saving people of all beliefs? Or does He only give His grace to some? Doesn't He love everyone?
     
  8. LCMS Sprecher

    LCMS Sprecher Member

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    Right on Quick!
     
  9. martha dodge

    martha dodge Member

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    Mr. Spinkles, I am a child of God now, but that was not always so. I was also a seeking agnostic who said " OK God if you are out there, prove it." The unicorn king did not show up. Father God did and He has proven more than sufficient and more than wise for 30 years. That is why my questioning has turned to testifying.
    God bless you always.
     
  10. Corban

    Corban Member

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    Your concept of heaven is so far off base from that of christianity as a whole that your question can not be accurately answered by "christians" you ask if groups outside of christianity are accepted into heaven, i ask if you consider yourself christian. and if you do then the idea of Christianity is spread so thin among so many beliefs that any attempt to group these ideologically seperate people together for the purpose of examination will fail simply because a foundatin for answer does not exist. Grouping differnent concepts into one large whole only creates an ambiguous whole whereon no idea true or false can be addressed. So before we even begin to answer your question of whether those outside of christianity can get into heaven, we must first answer, who are Christians, and what is heaven. i'll take it one step farther because i know many of you will fail to answer this correctly. a belief in Christ can not addequeately define if someone is Christian, because there is only one Christ, so if two people believe different things about this being who does not change than either one or both are wrong and either one or both are not Christian because they believe in a false Christ. just as i can not call the lamp in my bedroom Jesus and worship it and truly be considered a Christian, those who have false beliefs about Jesus can not remain in the group of Christians, and summarily if there are differing beliefs among a group of Christians it must be admitted some of them are wrong and they are not therefore true Christians who worship a false Christ
     
  11. Mr Spinkles

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    I am not Christian. I am asking the individuals who are Christian what they believe, and why. I think what is quoted above is a very valid question and one worth honestly considering. I realize there are different groups of Christians with different beliefs....so let's hear what each group/individual has to say.
     
  12. martha dodge

    martha dodge Member

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    Mr. Spinkles, Father God would love to give you grace to accept Him and would love to give you faith to believe more, but you won't take it. It is not Father God's fault. He has done everything that He can do. Jesus' death and resurrection was sufficient. Now it is up to each one of us.
     
  13. Master Vigil

    Master Vigil Well-Known Member

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    If that is all god can do, than he can't do too much can he? That limits his omnipotence, and when god is limited, god is no longer god.
     
  14. Mr Spinkles

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    quick said that people are saved by God's grace, not by our works, or anything we can do. According to quick as I understood him, it is not a matter of anyone accepting or rejecting grace....it is a matter of being given or not being given grace.

    I am going to start a topic about this in the Religious Debates forum, so I don't have to be so wary of expressing my own opinion.
     
  15. Gilly

    Gilly New Member

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    If you can get to heaven for being good then why did Jesus die on the cross? :roll:
     
  16. LCMS Sprecher

    LCMS Sprecher Member

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    There would be disagreement on my part with Martha Dodge. Grace is freely given to all people. The Holy Spirit works faith in us to apprehend it. However, there are those who would refuse to hear and accept the Gospel and therefore not allow the Holy Spirit to work faith in them.
     
  17. martha dodge

    martha dodge Member

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    I will stand corrected LCMS. It is Father God's grace which allows even atheist to live another day. We are all under His grace in that manner but Faith is only as we allow it to grow and I believe that the only prayer Father God hears from one who has rejected Him is Father, forgive me. So an unbeliver does not even have the grace of prayers heard( other than one of repentance). I would hope all who enter here would one day pray that or have prayed it.
     
  18. quick

    quick Member

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    I would suggest you read the Bible--the authority--rather than speculating in this fashion. Speculation by fallen man is dangerous.
     
  19. Lightkeeper

    Lightkeeper Well-Known Member

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    How can "fallen man" if he is so "fallen" understand the Bible? If he can read he can speculate.
     
  20. harold e. rice

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    Do you realize that the concept of afterlife came from the Egyptians and the Persians?
    The Idea of afterlife and resurrection was borrowed by Christians from previous cultures that wrote about it thousands of years before Jesus was said to have been born and died.
     
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