Religion teaching ( original text) should not be touched.

[King Phenomenon]

Not agree when it comes to spiritual teaching
In my understanding those teachings are made one way and are only meant to be taught and practiced one way. So when people of today change them, because it does not fit their view or it is against the norm of today. Then it is actually destroying the true teaching.

So this is why it become chaotic in mostly every spiritual practice today.

When I was a kid my mother told me that I don't have to believe everything I read in a book so I ran with it and it served me well but to each their own

 

[Spirit of Light]

You cannot know this to be true. What does it even mean to be "enlightened?" If someone is an electrician, you can test them easily by asking them to do something, in reality, that very easily proves their proficiency - like wiring up a junction box. What sort of test is there that can just as easily weed out the "enlightened masters" from the charlatans, or those with a personal agenda? I know of no such test.

Yes, they will. As for me... I wholeheartedly agree with your statement that "religious teachings should not be touched." Very good advice. Do not pick up that Bible. Do not lay a finger on that Quran. Do not thumb through scripture of any kind. Treat it much like a plague.

I am only speaking of spiritual practice. In OP like this I never speak of mundane jobs or life. Only spiritual understand.

As I said, this is my understanding of the issue of spiritual teachings. How I can say things about this?
I been practicing for a long time, and all scriptures/teachings I study speak of this.
Enlightened means one who have realized the spiritual truth. ( there are other ways to say it too)

I understand that none practicing people will not understand this.

 

[Spirit of Light]

When I was a kid my mother told me that I don't have to believe everything I read in a book so I ran with it and it served me well but to each their own

That is up to you.
I use the teaching as my guide in my practice, but ddon't follow it as a slave. I think for my self.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

I am only speaking of spiritual practice. In OP like this I never speak of mundane jobs or life. Only spiritual understand.

As I said, this is my understanding of the issue of spiritual teachings. How I can say things about this?
I been practicing for a long time, and all scriptures/teachings I study speak of this.
Enlightened means one who have realized the spiritual truth. ( there are other ways to say it too)

I understand that none practicing people will not understand this.

But then the question becomes "what is spiritual truth?" And for this, you must necessarily provide yet another ambiguous (or circular) answer. Some other word that has just as amorphous a definition, and is surrounded by just as much mystery. This is what I am talking about by asking questions back and back and back... until you can't think of anything to ask. And if along the way the answers do not satisfy you, and are not cogent or representative of the reality you experience, then, in my opinion, just about the whole lot of it must be deemed UNSATISFACTORY.

And the ONLY reason I made an example to "electricians" is to show you the OBVIOUS difference between such "spiritual" teachings and things that have RELIABLE utility/application/reproduce-ability. Juxtaposing what you call a "mundane job" with "spiritual enlightenment" exposes easily how UNRELIABLE this "spiritual enlightenment" is. Completely unreliable. Producing (as YOU even stated yourself) as many results as there are people. With a job like "electrician" you either get it right, or you don't - and it is easily discerned which end you have reached. "Spiritual enlightenment" however? Trying to measure or test it is impossible... a joke. Therefore it is unreliable... whether you like to admit it or not.

 

[King Phenomenon]

That is up to you.
I use the teaching as my guide in my practice, but ddon't follow it as a slave. I think for my self.

Well you did say that religious text was made one way and it is to be followed in one way but I hear ya.

 

[Spirit of Light]

But then the question becomes "what is spiritual truth?" And for this, you must necessarily provide yet another ambiguous (or circular) answer. Some other word that has just as amorphous a definition, and is surrounded by just as much mystery. This is what I am talking about by asking questions back and back and back... until you can't think of anything to ask. And if along the way the answers do not satisfy you, and are not cogent or representative of the reality you experience, then, in my opinion, just about the whole lot of it must be deemed UNSATISFACTORY.

And the ONLY reason I made an example to "electricians" is to show you the OBVIOUS difference between such "spiritual" teachings and things that have RELIABLE utility/application/reproduce-ability. Juxtaposing what you call a "mundane job" with "spiritual enlightenment" exposes easily how UNRELIABLE this "spiritual enlightenment" is. Completely unreliable. Producing (as YOU even stated yourself) as many results as there are people. With a job like "electrician" you either get it right, or you don't - and it is easily discerned which end you have reached. "Spiritual enlightenment" however? Trying to measure or test it is impossible... a joke. Therefore it is unreliable... whether you like to admit it or not.

The Bible, quran, Bhagavad Gita, Buddhist sutta, zhuan falun, and all other religious/spiritual teachings contain the truth, truth that those masters enlighten to.
I don't give circular answers on this.

I can not say what you should believe, it's ok if you do not believe any talk about spiritual truth. I have no interest in changing your view. All I have done is to speak what I my self understand. If others disagree that is ok to me.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Well you did say that religious text was made one way and it is to be followed in one way but I hear ya.

I said it should not be changed, I also said we all have our own understanding of the same teaching.

But change the teaching to fit our self is in my understanding wrong. It is the practitioner who must change to become like the teaching.

If others see it differently that is up to them. I only speak from my own understanding

 

[Koldo]

When it comes to religious or spiritual teachings there are just as many opinions and views as there are people.

But the teaching was meant to be taught the way it was presented by the founder. So how come people later wanna change those teachings?
I can understand people are in disagreement with religious/spiritual people, because very few people have realized the deep meaning of spiritual teachings. So many variations will arise depending on who you speak with. So it is a mystery to me that what people want is to change the teaching, but not them self.

To many spiritual practitioners the teaching is untouchable, but what you can do is to speak with practitioners from your own path, this can lead to, ou or them will gain new understanding of the teaching and thereby your understanding will change (wisdom arise)

But only one who have deep understanding of the teaching will be able to guide other practitioners who have less understanding of the teaching, from the same religion or spiritual path. ( that is my understanding)
It is also here I my self have failed a lot. I thought I understood teachings from other spiritual teachings, but realized that those teachings are different to my understanding, and my understanding can not be used to guide people from other religions or spiritual paths.(not that I try to guide others anymore)

So maybe a reason why discussions often go south is because we do not see the truth the same way as the people we discuss with. And our arguments fall apart because we can not see our own fault if we meet someone with more understanding of the teachings.

I agree with you on part and I disagree with you on part.

Let me elaborate: I abhor the sight of people picking their "truth" according to their convenience. This happens a LOT. Just to give you an example, people often want God to be one way or another and then interpret the scriptures according to how they want God to be, rather than trying to figure out what God is like from the scriptures.

Now for the part where I disagree with you: The original text might not be perfect. And if someone is able to truly improve it, it should be done.

 

[Koldo]

The Bible, quran, Bhagavad Gita, Buddhist sutta, zhuan falun, and all other religious/spiritual teachings contain the truth, truth that those masters enlighten to.
I don't give circular answers on this.

The curious part is that if we assume all of them were masters, then those masters disagree with each other about the truth. Which means they are either all wrong about a lot of different things or that only one of them got it completely right. And if so many masters got it wrong, shouldn't we filter their teachings to try to find what is truly right?

 

[Spirit of Light]

I agree with you on part and I disagree with you on part.

Let me elaborate: I abhor the sight of people picking their "truth" according to their convenience. This happens a LOT. Just to give you an example, people often want God to be one way or another and then interpret the scriptures according to how they want God to be, rather than trying to figure out what God is like from the scriptures.

Now for the part where I disagree with you: The original text might not be perfect. And if someone is able to truly improve it, it should be done.

Glad we can agree on something ( maybe not to often that happen)

So to the part we disagree.
In my understanding, the original teachings ( orally most often as the beginning) are from an enlighten person, God, Buddha an so on, they have realized a truth so pure that those of us who has not realized it, can not understand it. And we can not see any flaw in their teaching.

The only time I can see your statement come true, is if an even moire enlighten being come along and give an explanation to the question about truth.

In my understanding, truth is not constant, it will look different depending of the level each person has reached. Meaning someone who have only studied a spiritual teaching for a week, will not have realized the same truth as one who has been studying the teaching for 10 years, 40 years and so on.

The more we understand the more pure the truth become. As far as I understood

 

[Spirit of Light]

The curious part is that if we assume all of them were masters, then those masters disagree with each other about the truth. Which means they are either all wrong about a lot of different things or that only one of them got it completely right. And if so many masters got it wrong, shouldn't we filter their teachings to try to find what is truly right?

As I explain in my other post those masters had realized truth on different level of wisdom. Yes they saw truth differently, but they all were right on the level they had reached.

Technically, level is not a good word to describe it, but that is the best I can do right now

 

[paarsurrey]

When it comes to religious or spiritual teachings there are just as many opinions and views as there are people.

But the teaching was meant to be taught the way it was presented by the founder. So how come people later wanna change those teachings?
I can understand people are in disagreement with religious/spiritual people, because very few people have realized the deep meaning of spiritual teachings. So many variations will arise depending on who you speak with. So it is a mystery to me that what people want is to change the teaching, but not them self.

To many spiritual practitioners the teaching is untouchable, but what you can do is to speak with practitioners from your own path, this can lead to, ou or them will gain new understanding of the teaching and thereby your understanding will change (wisdom arise)

But only one who have deep understanding of the teaching will be able to guide other practitioners who have less understanding of the teaching, from the same religion or spiritual path. ( that is my understanding)
It is also here I my self have failed a lot. I thought I understood teachings from other spiritual teachings, but realized that those teachings are different to my understanding, and my understanding can not be used to guide people from other religions or spiritual paths.(not that I try to guide others anymore)

So maybe a reason why discussions often go south is because we do not see the truth the same way as the people we discuss with. And our arguments fall apart because we can not see our own fault if we meet someone with more understanding of the teachings.

" But the teaching was meant to be taught the way it was presented by the founder. So how come people later wanna change those teachings?"

Yes, that is true.
I agree with one.

Regards

 

[tayla]

But the teaching was meant to be taught the way it was presented by the founder. So how come people later wanna change those teachings?

I doubt it's possible to even know what the founder taught. These are filtered by those who came after and wrote the scriptures, established the creeds, and passed along their view of it all.

 

[Spirit of Light]

I doubt it's possible to even know what the founder taught. These are filtered by those who came after and wrote the scriptures, established the creeds, and passed along their view of it all.

In my understanding, this first followers did reach enlightenment too, and by that was able to recall and memorize the teaching correctly even when given orally. The problem arise later when it was written down and people did not "need" to pay that much attention first time. Because they could go back to read. But an other problem arise when people disagree with the teaching, and change it even when they do not fully understand why the scripture was given as it was first time. So when changed by none enlighten person, it loses the truth, and mankind can no longer reach full enlightenment..
That is when downfall of humanity start. ( in my understanding anyway)

 

[tayla]

In my understanding, this first followers did reach enlightenment too, and by that was able to recall and memorize the teaching correctly even when given orally. The problem arise later when it was written down and people did not "need" to pay that much attention first time. Because they could go back to read. But an other problem arise when people disagree with the teaching, and change it even when they do not fully understand why the scripture was given as it was first time. So when changed by none enlighten person, it loses the truth, and mankind can no longer reach full enlightenment..
That is when downfall of humanity start.

I think you are saying that the true teachings of the enlightened founder of a true religion or spiritual path is lost forever because it is immediately mangled, misunderstood, and changed by those second generation unenlightened followers who come afterwards. Am I understanding you correctly?

 

[Spirit of Light]

I think you are saying that the true teachings of the enlightened founder of a true religion or spiritual path is lost forever because it is immediately mangled, misunderstood, and changed by those second generation unenlightened followers who come afterwards. Am I understanding you correctly?

Not exactly I say that it will be gradually lost due to humans lack of morality, so in generation (500 year up to a 1000 after the original teaching) the numbers is not the most important. What is important is to see that it is us human beings that is the weak link here. We are the once who must awaken.