Religion, Spirituality and Effort

[DharmaCatLamp]

Howdy!

I was thinking that a lot of folks seem to forget that spiritual paths require effort. Yes you might be a part of a path merely by claiming membership in said path but often this is only the beginning.

If one claims to be a Buddhist for example this is all cool and good but if you claim to be a Buddhist then hold no practices then what are you actually saying? You should probably follow the precepts at least, or go to a temple or meditate etc. If you call yourself a Buddhist then do literally none of the things that make one a Buddhist or do none of the practices the Buddha advocated for lay people or monks then you are essentially identifying with an idea rather than actually practicing.

Don't get me wrong, if you want to identify with something then not doing anything else from there that is fine. You can do that of course but one shouldn't expect to see results from that. I love Kali for example but is it really love if all I do is say I love MaKali and put no effort into my bhakti?

You can say things like "I believe in Jesus Christ and am therefore saved!" but if you abandon the teachings of Christ then what do you mean when you say you believe in Christ? If you say you believe in Christ but live a life in almost exact opposite of his teachings how is that going to work exactly?

This isn't advocating for strict definitions on who is part of what group either. Ultimately what happens when you claim participation in a group is fairly meaningless in and of itself. You can claim to be a part of just about any group really and because of the nature of belonging there really isn't anyway to prove you are or are not a member of a group.

What I am saying is if you want to have a fruitful spiritual experience you can't just say you are part of a group, you actually have to put effort in. You need to practice to develop spiritually just like you would any other part of your life.

You should decide where you want to be headed and from there you should figure out what practices will help you get there.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Howdy!

I was thinking that a lot of folks seem to forget that spiritual paths require effort. Yes you might be a part of a path merely by claiming membership in said path but often this is only the beginning.

If one claims to be a Buddhist for example this is all cool and good but if you claim to be a Buddhist then hold no practices then what are you actually saying? You should probably follow the precepts at least, or go to a temple or meditate etc. If you call yourself a Buddhist then do literally none of the things that make one a Buddhist or do none of the practices the Buddha advocated for lay people or monks then you are essentially identifying with an idea rather than actually practicing.

Don't get me wrong, if you want to identify with something then not doing anything else from there that is fine. You can do that of course but one shouldn't expect to see results from that. I love Kali for example but is it really love if all I do is say I love MaKali and put no effort into my bhakti?

You can say things like "I believe in Jesus Christ and am therefore saved!" but if you abandon the teachings of Christ then what do you mean when you say you believe in Christ? If you say you believe in Christ but live a life in almost exact opposite of his teachings how is that going to work exactly?

This isn't advocating for strict definitions on who is part of what group either. Ultimately what happens when you claim participation in a group is fairly meaningless in and of itself. You can claim to be a part of just about any group really and because of the nature of belonging there really isn't anyway to prove you are or are not a member of a group.

What I am saying is if you want to have a fruitful spiritual experience you can't just say you are part of a group, you actually have to put effort in. You need to practice to develop spiritually just like you would any other part of your life.

You should decide where you want to be headed and from there you should figure out what practices will help you get there.

Yeah, I try to do the work everyday, because it never stops.

 

[Kenny]

Howdy!

I was thinking that a lot of folks seem to forget that spiritual paths require effort. Yes you might be a part of a path merely by claiming membership in said path but often this is only the beginning.

If one claims to be a Buddhist for example this is all cool and good but if you claim to be a Buddhist then hold no practices then what are you actually saying? You should probably follow the precepts at least, or go to a temple or meditate etc. If you call yourself a Buddhist then do literally none of the things that make one a Buddhist or do none of the practices the Buddha advocated for lay people or monks then you are essentially identifying with an idea rather than actually practicing.

Don't get me wrong, if you want to identify with something then not doing anything else from there that is fine. You can do that of course but one shouldn't expect to see results from that. I love Kali for example but is it really love if all I do is say I love MaKali and put no effort into my bhakti?

You can say things like "I believe in Jesus Christ and am therefore saved!" but if you abandon the teachings of Christ then what do you mean when you say you believe in Christ? If you say you believe in Christ but live a life in almost exact opposite of his teachings how is that going to work exactly?

This isn't advocating for strict definitions on who is part of what group either. Ultimately what happens when you claim participation in a group is fairly meaningless in and of itself. You can claim to be a part of just about any group really and because of the nature of belonging there really isn't anyway to prove you are or are not a member of a group.

What I am saying is if you want to have a fruitful spiritual experience you can't just say you are part of a group, you actually have to put effort in. You need to practice to develop spiritually just like you would any other part of your life.

You should decide where you want to be headed and from there you should figure out what practices will help you get there.

Yes... for Christians, James says it this way:

NLT
Now someone may argue, “Some people have faith; others have good deeds.” But I say, “How can you show me your faith if you don’t have good deeds? I will show you my faith by my good deeds.”

Like a marriage, don't just say you love me, show me that you love me.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Yes... for Christians, James says it this way:

NLT
Now someone may argue, “Some people have faith; others have good deeds.” But I say, “How can you show me your faith if you don’t have good deeds? I will show you my faith by my good deeds.”

Like a marriage, don't just say you love me, show me that you love me.

Well, I can use that and I am not really a Christian.

 

[Windwalker]

Howdy!

I was thinking that a lot of folks seem to forget that spiritual paths require effort. Yes you might be a part of a path merely by claiming membership in said path but often this is only the beginning.

Funny how certain things appear in themes. I just posted this this morning in a another thread which ties into this: Saved from sin?

Don't get me wrong, if you want to identify with something then not doing anything else from there that is fine. You can do that of course but one shouldn't expect to see results from that.

The thing about this though is that one's religious identification can become a mask of self-deception, allowing you to believe you are on the right path because you are "religious", while you aren't actually doing any work of spiritual transformation.

In such a case, that religious identification serves the ego. People actually avoid God, or the Self, or Atman, by being religious. In Buddhism they speak of the far enemy and the near enemy, The far enemy is the exact opposite of the goal. The near enemy masquerades as the goal, but keeps your from the goal. the near enemy is more insidious because it allows us to deceive ourselves we are are the path, when we are not.

This is one reason I do not identify with any religions. I like to say, I follow the same religion God does. In other words, I am all religions, I am none. I'd rather look to see fruit borne, rather than beliefs held.

You can say things like "I believe in Jesus Christ and am therefore saved!" but if you abandon the teachings of Christ then what do you mean when you say you believe in Christ?

It means they are not following the path. They are deceiving themselves and others, and all those who follow them into a ditch.

If you say you believe in Christ but live a life in almost exact opposite of his teachings how is that going to work exactly?

In some cases, it works to get you elected to the office of President of the United States, by those who are likewise on a path of self-deception.

What I am saying is if you want to have a fruitful spiritual experience you can't just say you are part of a group, you actually have to put effort in. You need to practice to develop spiritually just like you would any other part of your life.

You should decide where you want to be headed and from there you should figure out what practices will help you get there.

Exactly. And I'll add one quote that comes to mind as well for those who are on that path. A quote from the Buddha,

"To insist on a spiritual practice that served you in the past is to carry the raft on your back after you have crossed the river."
​

Use what religion has to offer, but don't make it your God.

 

[Hermit Philosopher]

Howdy!

I was thinking that a lot of folks seem to forget that spiritual paths require effort. Yes you might be a part of a path merely by claiming membership in said path but often this is only the beginning.

If one claims to be a Buddhist for example this is all cool and good but if you claim to be a Buddhist then hold no practices then what are you actually saying? You should probably follow the precepts at least, or go to a temple or meditate etc. If you call yourself a Buddhist then do literally none of the things that make one a Buddhist or do none of the practices the Buddha advocated for lay people or monks then you are essentially identifying with an idea rather than actually practicing.

Don't get me wrong, if you want to identify with something then not doing anything else from there that is fine. You can do that of course but one shouldn't expect to see results from that. I love Kali for example but is it really love if all I do is say I love MaKali and put no effort into my bhakti?

You can say things like "I believe in Jesus Christ and am therefore saved!" but if you abandon the teachings of Christ then what do you mean when you say you believe in Christ? If you say you believe in Christ but live a life in almost exact opposite of his teachings how is that going to work exactly?

This isn't advocating for strict definitions on who is part of what group either. Ultimately what happens when you claim participation in a group is fairly meaningless in and of itself. You can claim to be a part of just about any group really and because of the nature of belonging there really isn't anyway to prove you are or are not a member of a group.

What I am saying is if you want to have a fruitful spiritual experience you can't just say you are part of a group, you actually have to put effort in. You need to practice to develop spiritually just like you would any other part of your life.

You should decide where you want to be headed and from there you should figure out what practices will help you get there.

Greetings DharmaCatLamp

When it comes to faith, I’d say that it is next to irrelevant who you identify with group-wise. What matters is what you do and, especially, how you approach (or, what you do onto) others.

To me, being of a certain faith is not about attending their places of collective worship or about strictly following their religious ceremonies/traditions - after all, you can do those things and be entirely without faith.

Being of a certain faith is about the perspective you acquire through the “teachings” of that faith and about how that perspective impacts on you actions, choices and priorities in your interaction with your fellow beings.

So, you’re a Buddhist when you see, think and act from the teachings of Buddha and, you are a Christian when you see, think and act from the teachings of Christ.

In time, you may come to see that different teachings (not their places of worship, customs or artefacts) share great similarities. Then, you may no longer define yourself as of a particular faith, but rather of faith in general.


Humbly,
Hermit

 

[JustGeorge]

I don't know. How can we fairly say what works for another person? And not all religious people are goal oriented or looking to gain something out of their spiritual practice. That doesn't mean we can label them as 'not serious'.

There are, of course, behaviors that if a person makes no attempt to keep under control, a person could wonder if the person's religion was an empty title. Sometimes it is. Though, sometimes even that can serve a purpose, because it allows you to see what 'colors' the person 'sees' in. My son is a cultural Pagan, and my acquaintance is a cultural Christian. Their default thinking is not the same. They see the world differently. Of course, we all see it a little different, but knowing that bit of information can help to better understand.

Sometimes people run out of time or energy for formal spiritual practice. Just because they are not in any state to sit and chant doesn't mean they've lost focus on their spiritual path. Perhaps they pray silently to God while at work. Why is one better than the other? Or, perhaps they're simply wondering away from their spiritual practice. That doesn't mean their Gods have left them.

I do get where you're going with it; I just don't think its always so simple.

I guess I am a person without a goal, as well. I actually do have spiritual practices, but I discarded the idea of goals awhile ago. My Gods are everywhere. Where is there to go? What have I to achieve?

 

[sun rise]

I agree with the OP on the importance of action.

 

[Hermit Philosopher]

I guess I am a person without a goal, as well. I actually do have spiritual practices, but I discarded the idea of goals awhile ago. My Gods are everywhere. Where is there to go? What have I to achieve?

Bless you dearly JustGeorge,

One is not without faith simply because one does not set up “spiritual goals” [for oneself]. After all; apart from not contributing to the suffering of others, what is it that this “self”thinks is so spiritually valuable to achieve?

I am sure that you that you see, think and act from your faith on a daily basis without even having to consciously assert doing so.


Humbly,
Hermit

 

[Aupmanyav]

I love Kali for example but is it really love if all I do is say I love Ma Kali and put no effort into my bhakti?

I see no problem. Bhakti is not rituals, it is a matter of heart. One can keep the deities in his / her heart.
As for good works (dharma), it is obligatory for all, theists as well as atheists.

 

[CharmingOwl]

I think when someone uses a religious group for identity and doesn't put effort it, they never really wanted to practice it. It was an egoic attachment to a practice they would use to identify with. If that practice was Buddhism, then the irony is palpable.

And I am not saying that to pass judgement as I understand how it can be wanting to emulate positive qualities of a group or be a member of a group, but at the end of that day your path is yours.