Religion is not funny.

[mikkel_the_dane]

I doubted this thread being in Atheist Only.
DIRs are too over-used.

Yeah, I mean what does religion have to do with atheists? There are atheists, who are religious. Religious practices not mentioned in OP but relevant to what religion is.

 

[Revoltingest]

Yeah, I mean what does religion have to do with atheists? There are atheists, who are religious. Religious practices not mentioned in OP but relevant to what religion is.

Religion has much to do with atheism.
It's often our nemesis in government.
But I see no benefit in excluding believers
from the discussion.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

'Religion' covers so many different belief systems with minimal, if any, commonalities between them that just about any adjective you choose could be applied to some part of it.

Replacing religion with something else won't make much difference as non-religious ideologies can also be equally dangerous.

Religions are human creations so the problems in religions are really just problems caused by our flawed human nature.

Humans collectively are not very rational and never will be. Any future decline in religion won't really change this fact a great deal.

Yeah, it is not like religion is in fact supernatural and outside nature. It is a natural phenomenon and not a special negative not really a part of the world.

 

[Link]

I suffer from mental illness. Doctors can't solve mental illness in this century, they can help alleviate some of the symptoms but what is a symptom of mental illness and what is genuine experience of the unseen, I and my doctor disagree, and so I don't tell them about my spiritual experiences.

Part of Doctors efforts is to make it manageable through a healthy dosage, but you need your own coping methods, and you don't know enough about the unseen to comment if prayers, etc, work or not.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Religion has much to do with atheism.
It's often our nemesis in government.
But I see no benefit in excluding believers
from the discussion.

Well, as always it depends on what you take for granted about what religion is.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

No, I do get you. And you have a point about my answers so far.

The only problem is that claims without evidence is not unique to religious humans.
So if we are to show disdain for humans, who make claims without evidence, why limit it to religious humans?

What makes you think I limit it to religious humans? I can assure you... I don't. You, yourself, should have some good evidence of this in your interactions with me.

 

[Revoltingest]

Well, as always it depends on what you take for granted about what religion is.

No, it does not.
All religion...whatever you think it is or isn't...it's relevant.

 

[George-ananda]

I always used to think of religion as mildly amusing, if people want to live their lives believing in all sorts of weird and wonderful things, that is fine by me, why should I care?

Last night I witnessed a thread develop on here posted by a lady who believes she is being "visited" by a "presence" The lady told us she was already on tablets to stop hallucinations. The advice from many of the religious on this forum? not go and see your doctor as any responsible adult would do but talk of angels and demons and something called a jinn. Calls to pray to whatever god that person believed in. I was astonished and not a little angry.

Can you imagine if a woman came on here and said she had a lump in her breast and posters told her to see a witch doctor! There would be outrage and quite rightly so.

Mental health is a well established science it can help people. Hats off to those religious people who did advise her to see a doctor first.

For me this is an example of how religion can be worrying, it is not always the obvious like flying planes into buildings, anti vaxxing or hating on those like the LGBT community who suffer from religious bigotry, it can often be barely noticeable how religion affects our society.

Religion is not funny, it can be downright dangerous.

Most ideologies if carried to extreme can be harmful but I also believe some spiritual beliefs are also true and beneficial to people.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

The only problem is that claims without evidence is not unique to religious humans. So if we are to show disdain for humans, who make claims without evidence, why limit it to religious humans?

We don't. We give the same message to climate deniers, election outcome deniers, vaccine and mask deniers, insurrection deniers, flat earthers, and moon landing hoaxers.

And what do they all have in common? Belief by faith. The willingness to believe something without sufficient evidentiary support, often in the face of contradictory evidence. And organized, politicized religion is just as toxic as any of these.

This makes me an antitheist of sorts. I'm not against religion per se (most are just fine with me), just religions like Christianity and Islam that want to intrude into government and impose their values on unwilling people, or that teach that atheists (and homosexuals) are immoral and deserve to be scorned and treated with contempt.

I am in agreement with the OP. No atheist should accept that. All should actively denounce such religions until they shrink to the size that they are relevant only in the lives of willing believers.

Hitchens makes no bones about it. He also considers religion a net negative in the world (I'm pretty sure he means Christianity here, but possibly Islam as well, the two largest organized, politicized religions, both with angry gods that disapprove of almost everything - surely not the Druids or the Baha'i, for example):

• "We keep on being told that religion, whatever its imperfections, at least instills morality. On every side, there is conclusive evidence that the contrary is the case and that faith causes people to be more mean, more selfish, and perhaps above all, more stupid." - Christopher Hitchens

• "I am absolutely convinced that the main source of hatred in the world is religion. I think it should be treated with ridicule, hatred, and contempt, and I claim that right". - Christopher Hitchens

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

No, it does not.
All religion...whatever you think it is or isn't...it's relevant.

So that applies to your non-objective parts in regards to values in your worldview, since those are religious at least according to one definition of religion. In other words all normative and value politics should be kept out of the government.including yours and mine.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

We don't. We give the same message to climate deniers, election outcome deniers, vaccine and mask deniers, insurrection deniers, flat earthers, and moon landing hoaxers.

And what do they all have in common? Belief by faith. The willingness to believe something without sufficient evidentiary support, often in the face of contradictory evidence. And organized, politicized religion is just as toxic as any of these.

This makes me an antitheist of sorts. I'm not against religion per se (most are just fine with me), just religions like Christianity and Islam that want to intrude into government and impose their values on unwilling people, or that teach that atheists (and homosexuals) are immoral and deserve to be scorned and treated with contempt.

I am in agreement with the OP. No atheist should accept that. All should actively denounce such religions until they shrink to the size that they are relevant only in the lives of willing believers.

Hitchens makes no bones about it. He also considers religion a net negative in the world (I'm pretty sure he means Christianity here, but possibly Islam as well, the two largest organized, politicized religions, both with angry gods that disapprove of almost everything - surely not the Druids or the Baha'i, for example):

• "We keep on being told that religion, whatever its imperfections, at least instills morality. On every side, there is conclusive evidence that the contrary is the case and that faith causes people to be more mean, more selfish, and perhaps above all, more stupid." - Christopher Hitchens

• "I am absolutely convinced that the main source of hatred in the world is religion. I think it should be treated with ridicule, hatred, and contempt, and I claim that right". - Christopher Hitchens

So someone who claims that science can do morality is doing than based on belief by faith. Or some versions of communism, libertarian, fascist and other political ideologies. Or objective morality based on philosophy.
In short do you accept this: https://undsci.berkeley.edu/article/0_0_0/whatisscience_12
And this:
Cognitive Relativism | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy Go to part 3.

 

[firedragon]

Last night I witnessed a thread develop on here posted by a lady who believes she is being "visited" by a "presence" The lady told us she was already on tablets to stop hallucinations. The advice from many of the religious on this forum? not go and see your doctor as any responsible adult would do but talk of angels and demons and something called a jinn. Calls to pray to whatever god that person believed in. I was astonished and not a little angry.

Interesting. Which thread is this? If you could please provide a hyperlink. Will be grateful.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

My thoughts from another thread:

Atheists don't like their worldview being broken to pieces as it implies those who experience spiritual experiences, really aren't mentally ill. Atheists like to follow a script of spiritual experiences as being mental illness to see a doctor about, only telling people when it's convenient to, when my own psychiatrist is pretty religious and has it worked down to a science how to separate religious beliefs from genuine hallucinations, something some atheists might not like to hear.

Atheists like to remind us that atheism isn't a religion, but they often kind of try to save their ideas or lack of ideas on a subject like a religion. Whenever I start to corner some atheists on a debate subject, their next question is, "Well if I do believe this, how will it help me?" rather than just following an idea through to completion on its merits.

 

[Revoltingest]

So that applies to your non-objective parts in regards to values in your worldview, since those are religious at least according to one definition of religion. In other words all normative and value politics should be kept out of the government.including yours and mine.

Take yer pick...objective or subjective.
Whatever definition of "religion" you prefer,
it still interests us heathens, particularly
because of its effects in governance.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

Last night I witnessed a thread develop on here posted by a lady who believes she is being "visited" by a "presence" The lady told us she was already on tablets to stop hallucinations. The advice from many of the religious on this forum? not go and see your doctor as any responsible adult would do but talk of angels and demons and something called a jinn. Calls to pray to whatever god that person believed in. I was astonished and not a little angry.

You may be misunderstanding the thread. Like 80 percent of religious people suggested the possibility of a doctor, including me, in weighing all possibilities. The Muslim that suggested it could be a jinn was helpful if you understand the context - for example, they weren't telling her to follow such an idea about marrying a male presence.

 

[Quagmire]

I always used to think of religion as mildly amusing, if people want to live their lives believing in all sorts of weird and wonderful things, that is fine by me, why should I care?

Last night I witnessed a thread develop on here posted by a lady who believes she is being "visited" by a "presence" The lady told us she was already on tablets to stop hallucinations. The advice from many of the religious on this forum? not go and see your doctor as any responsible adult would do but talk of angels and demons and something called a jinn. Calls to pray to whatever god that person believed in. I was astonished and not a little angry.

Can you imagine if a woman came on here and said she had a lump in her breast and posters told her to see a witch doctor! There would be outrage and quite rightly so.

Mental health is a well established science it can help people. Hats off to those religious people who did advise her to see a doctor first.

For me this is an example of how religion can be worrying, it is not always the obvious like flying planes into buildings, anti vaxxing or hating on those like the LGBT community who suffer from religious bigotry, it can often be barely noticeable how religion affects our society.

Religion is not funny, it can be downright dangerous.

Probably not as dangerous as mainstream medicine:

"According to a recent study by Johns Hopkins, more than 250,000 people in the United States die every year because of medical mistakes, making it the third leading cause of death after heart disease and cancer.Feb 22, 2018"
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...AxAG&usg=AOvVaw0qDWsV61-4Dg8n9TtlbAO_&ampcf=1

I think it would be harder to quantify, but I wouldn't expect the mental health communitie's record to be much better.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

I think it would be harder to quantify, but I wouldn't expect the mental health communitie's record to be much better.

Here's my issue too with the whole thing, Quag. The woman said she was already on pills. If she goes to the doctor, they will refer her to a psychiatrist, who will either prescribe pills, or adjust her existing medicine. If they decide to do anything at all, because going to the psychiatrist and saying "People on the internet told me to see you" often raises an eyebrow with the psychiatrist should there not be additional details to tell them.

The OP here seems to suggest, if I recall, that medical science has advanced so much, that one should trust it for the given scenario. But like I said, they'll just get pills, and pills don't work instantly, pills are just a long path toward getting better should they have a problem.

If the OP meant they need some 'talk therapy' instead, while that may be true because it's good for some people even without problems, sometimes even talking to a nonprofessional about how you feel helps. Can't just spend 24/7 with a counselor and make it one's whole entire life.

 

[PureX]

Science isn't funny, either. So what?

 

[Twilight Hue]

People who even begin to think like you, can be downright dangerous.

I view religion as dangerous based on threat assessment.

I don't think religion itself is necessarily dangerous, but the people whom use religion in the form of a tool, going so far as to weaponizing in order to bring an end to a means.

I think your on the right track that it's people more than a religion that can be the culprit.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I view religion as dangerous based on threat assessment.

I don't think religion itself is necessarily dangerous, but the people whom use religion in the form of a tool, going so far as to weaponizing in order to bring an end to a means.

I think your on the right track that it's people more than a religion that can be the culprit.

Well, yes. But that can also be true political ideologies and some systems in philosophy.