"Religion is for people who don't want to go to hell....."

[Father Heathen]

In my experience, "irrationality" is what someone labels someone else's thinking when they do not understand or disagree with the reasons behind of that perspective. The word is used as a value judgement. As such, I find it almost entirely useless and unenlightening and spare others from that label at all times.

So you make no judgement calls whatsoever regarding the thoughts and actions of others?

 

[Quintessence]

So you make no judgement calls whatsoever regarding the thoughts and actions of others?

What an amusing rhetorical question.

Let's state this another way, then. I find labeling other people's behaviors as "irrational" to be at best, uselessly superficial and intellectually lazy. There's no such thing as uncaused behavior, no such thing as action without reason. Dismissing something as "irrational" marks a cessation of honest inquiry into causes and reasons. At best. From there, failure to inquire creates lack of understanding. At worst? Given people rarely if ever use the word "irrational" as a neutral, descriptive term, it's a recipe for self-righteous arrogance and flat-out intolerance of other ways of thinking. The results of that include things like extermination of the so-called "irrational" (undesirable) ways of thinking or ways of life. Or extermination of those lives themselves.

Yup. Sorry. Not a fan. I understand that people throw around the word "irrational" rather casually and that these kinds of subtexts are not necessarily intended by those using that word as a slur. Nonetheless, I would encourage a little humility and understanding instead of tossing around words like that. One can conduct meaningful examinations of the strengths and shortcomings of all ways of thinking without such terms.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Nice reading this thread folks.

I sort of posted the quote on a fleeting thought.
I don't hold it as truth.

So I appreciate that this has mainly been a talking thread,
and not an arguing thread

I think the truth of the matter is many people you see in church are afraid of dieing and the possibility of eternal life gives them comfort.

Many churches help the community and many people enjoy socialization and helping others.

I really don't think eternal damnation is the chief motivator for religion and you see many denominations that don't even believe in hell.

Religion has been around for a long time, there is more to religion than a scary bed time story. :sorry1:

I believe it has more to do with spirituality and the feeling people get from attending church.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

What an amusing rhetorical question.

Let's state this another way, then. I find labeling other people's behaviors as "irrational" to be at best, uselessly superficial and intellectually lazy. There's no such thing as uncaused behavior, no such thing as action without reason. Dismissing something as "irrational" marks a cessation of honest inquiry into causes and reasons. At best. From there, failure to inquire creates lack of understanding. At worst? Given people rarely if ever use the word "irrational" as a neutral, descriptive term, it's a recipe for self-righteous arrogance and flat-out intolerance of other ways of thinking. The results of that include things like extermination of the so-called "irrational" (undesirable) ways of thinking or ways of life. Or extermination of those lives themselves.

Yup. Sorry. Not a fan. I understand that people throw around the word "irrational" rather casually and that these kinds of subtexts are not necessarily intended by those using that word as a slur. Nonetheless, I would encourage a little humility and understanding instead of tossing around words like that. One can conduct meaningful examinations of the strengths and shortcomings of all ways of thinking without such terms.

What if the shortcoming is that the idea is irrational?

 

[SageTree]

I think the truth of the matter is many people you see in church are afraid of dieing and the possibility of eternal life gives them comfort.

Many churches help the community and many people enjoy socialization and helping others.

I really don't think eternal damnation is the chief motivator for religion and you see many denominations that don't even believe in hell.

Religion has been around for a long time, there is more to religion than a scary bed time story. :sorry1:

I believe it has more to do with spirituality and the feeling people get from attending church.

I agree with all that Double R

This was possibly my most 'stirring the pot' thread on here,
but heard it from a speaker and figured I'd share.

Sorry if the pot I was stirring was full of ***** and it stank a little.

 

[Muffled]

"Religion is for people who don't want to go to hell, and Spirituality is for people who have been there."

What are your thoughts on this quote from a speaker I heard talking today?

I won't tell much about the speakers view, tradition etc....
I don't feel it's really important to the question.

So... there it is.


-SageTree

Religion is like family for me. It is like the gathering of family for thanksgiving.

Spirituality is life for me, life in the sense of everything that is good.

 

[SageTree]

That is sort of how I think of it.

Religion is a line dance we learn to get out on the floor with people to be together.
Spirituality is the Force which moves us and helps us be connected to All,
which sometimes means finding a particular dance to commune.

 

[Muffled]

For those who have bought into the idea of hell, anyway. It's no secret that without the threat of hell Christianity would have a tough go of it. Got to give people a better reason to buy your product and not that of the guy in the next booth.

Just empty rhetoric to round out the thought.

Although I believe this is a favorite gambit of evangelists, I doubt a poll would reveal Hell as the motivation for becoming a Christian for many people.

I like the reason given by Bunyan in Pilgrims Progress when Pigrim discovers he no longer has to carry the burden of sin.

 

[Muffled]

While I agree with most of your points in regards to the quote, I did want to comment on this part.

While I don't think fear of Hell really convinces many people to adopt a particular religion, it is something used to prevent people from leaving a religion. You're right: believers have no need to fear hell. But what if your faith is wavering? What if you're thinking about leaving? Then hell becomes something to consider. Are you willing to risk it? Believe me, this is a tough one, from someone who lived through it.

That is tough enough but I would think missing out on eternal life would be a risk I wouldn't want to take.

 

[Quintessence]

What if the shortcoming is that the idea is irrational?

Irrational according to whose standards? What makes it supposedly irrational? I just don't find that word a useful descriptor, for there's no such thing as behavior without cause or justification. What constitutes an "acceptable" cause or justification lies in opinion-land. What is reasonable to one is not reasonable to someone else. Thus calling something irrational basically amounts to "I don't agree with the reason" or "I don't understand the reason." I would rather someone state "it doesn't make sense to me" or "I don't agree with that" than use the term, as "irrational" is all too often used as a purposefully demeaning snarl word or for name calling. If it doesn't make sense or you don't agree with it, sure, that's a valid shortcoming from your own point of view.

 

[Thief]

Religion...one on one with God?
Or a collective system of ideas shared by many.

Either way it is not an imposition until someone seeks to make the dogmatic points into everyday law...with consequence.

In discussion...I see no cause to censor.

 

[Me Myself]

Religion is for people, spirituality is for souls

 

[Father Heathen]

What an amusing rhetorical question.

Let's state this another way, then. I find labeling other people's behaviors as "irrational" to be at best, uselessly superficial and intellectually lazy. There's no such thing as uncaused behavior, no such thing as action without reason. Dismissing something as "irrational" marks a cessation of honest inquiry into causes and reasons. At best. From there, failure to inquire creates lack of understanding. At worst? Given people rarely if ever use the word "irrational" as a neutral, descriptive term, it's a recipe for self-righteous arrogance and flat-out intolerance of other ways of thinking. The results of that include things like extermination of the so-called "irrational" (undesirable) ways of thinking or ways of life. Or extermination of those lives themselves.

Yup. Sorry. Not a fan. I understand that people throw around the word "irrational" rather casually and that these kinds of subtexts are not necessarily intended by those using that word as a slur. Nonetheless, I would encourage a little humility and understanding instead of tossing around words like that. One can conduct meaningful examinations of the strengths and shortcomings of all ways of thinking without such terms.

Not sure what you're babbling about, but you can be aware of and understand the cause and reason behind certain actions and behaviors, and by applying critical thought and logical deduction you can determine whether or not they're sensible and justified. Take prejudices and phobias, for example.

 

[Quintessence]

Meh, there's obviously a failure of communication here, and I don't really care enough about this conversation to try and resolve it.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

Irrational according to whose standards? What makes it supposedly irrational? I just don't find that word a useful descriptor, for there's no such thing as behavior without cause or justification. What constitutes an "acceptable" cause or justification lies in opinion-land. What is reasonable to one is not reasonable to someone else. Thus calling something irrational basically amounts to "I don't agree with the reason" or "I don't understand the reason." I would rather someone state "it doesn't make sense to me" or "I don't agree with that" than use the term, as "irrational" is all too often used as a purposefully demeaning snarl word or for name calling. If it doesn't make sense or you don't agree with it, sure, that's a valid shortcoming from your own point of view.

Interesting, but a large part of the field of psychology deals with irrationality [your definition is not accurate, btw]. They don't go by 'mere opinion', but, nice attempt at mischaracterizing me What makes it irrational in most cases that I observe, is a lack of use of reason, formal logic, or in some bad cases even bare coherence of expression.

And we both know we can't name-call here

 

[Quintessence]

I'm not intending to "mischaracterize" you, so I'm sorry you read that into what I said. I'm simply making an observation with regard to how the word "irrational" is (unfortunately) all too often used by people. They use it to demean others or when they don't understand/agree. Obviously not everyone uses the term in this way, but it gets used like that quite often. I find too many cases where I understand the logic/reason of perspectives I disagree with - yet others somehow don't - to not come to this conclusion. The logic and reasoning behind many religious perspectives escapes the understanding of outsiders or contains strong grounds for disagreements, which is why I find this an important point in this conversation in particular.