Religion is dying in Europe

[Drizzt Do'Urden]

I would concur, except that Judaism and subsequently Christianity comprehensively departed from the 'El' (deist) conception to embrace the YHWH conception from the time of Moses.

In fact Abraham also departed from the pagan-deist El conception, even though he retained "El."

It is why Islam does not own the OT.

El, was not a deistic god...

Any god with a name that in some way interacts with, or reveals itself to man, fails to meet the requirements of a deistic god.

Deism's creed is pure and sublimely simple, it believes in god and there it rests

If you've given the deistic god a name, or claim that it has revealed itself to you via revelation, your deistic god has now become a theistic god.

Theism is the belief in a god as the ruler of the universe who reveals himself to man via prophets and divine revelations...

 

[Altfish]

You said, "They are all made up by humans," which effectively is what RE teaches surreptitiously, and which you also teach, so you have exactly proved my point. This is a huge turn off. There is no real need for kids to be taught about the endless list of religious rituals, the endless list of gods and goddesses, especially of Hinduism and other pagan religions, that are the legacy of thousands of years of history. It is pretty meaningless really.

And I bet RE does not teach that Allah is derived from a Ba'al idol? That would be true, however,

Religion is only about truth, or it is just an anthropological study, or even worse, it amounts to indoctrination by the State to the effect that there is value in pious falsehood, especially in respect to politically active religions, many of which are really quite evil.

In its current form I see RE as not fit for purpose. The only RE that is required is education in truth.

You don't know what I teach!!
I do not disrespect other religions in my lessons at all. I explain why I am a humanist, why non-believers can be moral and how we celebrate death, births and marriages.
I do not know what RE teaches about Allah.
BUT it is you, not me, who are disrespecting religions and non believers who do not meet your Christian 'standards'.
Religion is not about truth, it is about faith, and faith is belief without evidence.

 

[tayla]

"Europe’s march towards a post-Christian society has been starkly illustrated by research showing a majority of young people in a dozen countries do not follow a religion."

I wonder about the statistics of people having some kind of spiritual inclination compared to those rejecting spirituality out of hand? And if atheists are increasing, is that even a problem? As long as they don't round up the others and send them off to concentration camps.

 

[Altfish]

I wonder about the statistics of people having some kind of spiritual inclination compared to those rejecting spirituality out of hand? And if atheists are increasing, is that even a problem? As long as they don't round up the others and send them off to concentration camps.

It is a march away from organised religion.
Why would atheists send people off to concentration camps?

 

[Shushersbedamned]

I wonder about the statistics of people having some kind of spiritual inclination compared to those rejecting spirituality out of hand? And if atheists are increasing, is that even a problem? As long as they don't round up the others and send them off to concentration camps.

I once heard a statistic from my country and it was that 90% of the population believe in some kind of a god.

 

[outlawState]

If you've given the deistic god a name, or claim that it has revealed itself to you via revelation, your deistic god has now become a theistic god.

Pretty much what I inferred actually. El is not the name of a God but the generic name for God. So it is a deist conception. With Abraham it became a theist conception. Islam retains the deist notion of God, as Allah "the god" is also a generic name. This reflects the Galatians 4;21 distinction between the children of the promise by Sarah and the natural children by Hagar.

 

[tayla]

Why would atheists send people off to concentration camps?

Because they want to rid the world of annoying Christians, for example. Lots of reasons.

 

[Drizzt Do'Urden]

Pretty much what I inferred actually. El is not the name of a God but the generic name for God. So it is a deist conception. With Abraham it became a theist conception. Islam retains the deist notion of God, as Allah "the god" is also a generic name. This reflects the Galatians 4;21 distinction between the children of the promise by Sarah and the natural children by Hagar.

Not the same. El was one of the gods the Jews worshiped during their polytheistic phase that predates their conversion to monotheism.

Deists don't worship God, they merely acknowledge its existence.

If you are worshiping a God, you aren't a deist

 

[outlawState]

Not the same. El was one of the gods the Jews worshiped during their polytheistic phase that predates their conversion to monotheism.

El was certainly head of the Canaanite pantheon, but the supreme God, and also a generic name for the supreme God. The Hebrews merely inherited the title, as the patriarchs lived in Canaan. That does not mean that they were polytheists. They weren't. The Jews did not have any "polytheistic phase," except as was recognized to be heretical.

Deists don't worship God, they merely acknowledge its existence.

Even Deists have their temples and their rites. cf. Freemasons. They may not refer to it as "worship" but so what? Your distinction is too fine. A freemason does not merely just acknowledge the god of the masons.

If you are worshiping a God, you aren't a deist

Again I disagree. There are many who worship satan (as Christ said), but Satan never reveals himself as such. It is clearly a form of deism. Ritual temple cults and idol worship are all deist cults.

 

[Altfish]

Because they want to rid the world of annoying Christians, for example. Lots of reasons.

Well they've never done it before, why should they start now, Certainly Humanists have no problem with people practicing religion; it only has problems with religious privilege.

 

[Drizzt Do'Urden]

El was certainly head of the Canaanite pantheon, but the supreme God, and also a generic name for the supreme God. The Hebrews merely inherited the title, as the patriarchs lived in Canaan. That does not mean that they were polytheists. They weren't. The Jews did not have any "polytheistic phase," except as was recognized to be heretical.


I don't agree. Even Deists have their temples. cf. Freemasons.

Again I disagree. There are many who worship satan (as Christ said), but Satan never reveals himself as such. It is clearly a form of deism.

[/QUOTE]

The Jews certainly did have polytheistic beliefs that predate their monotheistic conversion. Yahweh just happens to be the God from that pantheon that won the arms race.

Freemasonry isn't a religion where specific gods are worshiped and their temples aren't truly temples, they're lodges. Masons can be Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Deists, etc

I am with ambassador Franklin, himself a deist.

"I cannot conceive otherwise than that He, the infinite father, expects or requires no worship or praise from us, but that he is infinitly above it."

 

[outlawState]

The Jews certainly did have polytheistic beliefs that predate their monotheistic conversion. Yahweh just happens to be the God from that pantheon that won the arms race.

YHWH was not a god from any pantheon. Quite the opposite. YHWH establishes monotheism. Does not have any comparator in any other nation's pantheon .YHWH was an evolution from and rather superior revelation of "El," specific to the Hebrews.

Freemasonry isn't a religion where specific gods are worshiped and their temples aren't truly temples, they're lodges. Masons can be Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Deists, etc

I am with ambassador Franklin, himself a deist.

I agree that there are some true religionists amongst the freemasons, but I think that they are quite deluded that God's approves of them being freemasons, or else they are deluded about freemasonry itself, which I see as incompatible with Christianity.

I concur that freemasonry is no form of theistic endeavour.

 

[Drizzt Do'Urden]

YHWH was not a god from any pantheon. Quite the opposite. YHWH establishes monotheism. Does not have any comparator in any other nation's pantheon .YHWH was an evolution from and rather superior revelation of "El," specific to the Hebrews.



I agree that there are some true religionists amongst the freemasons, but I think that they are quite deluded that God's approves of them being freemasons, or else they are deluded about freemasonry itself, which I see as incompatible with Christianity.

I concur that freemasonry is no form of theistic endeavour.

Yahweh started off as a demigod who led the heavenly army against Israel's enemies. He was their warrior God and was later promoted to be the first monotheistic god of Israel.

If he was promoted to the only God, that implies there were other gods that the Israel's worshiped alongside him thus making them a polytheistic culture prior to their monotheistic conversion.

Freemasons only require that you believe in a God to be a member. They can be from any religion that believes in a God or be from no religion yet still believe in God (a deist)

 

[outlawState]

Yahweh started off as a demigod who led the heavenly army against Israel's enemies. He was their warrior God and was later promoted to be the first monotheistic god of Israel.

If he was promoted to the only God, that implies there were other gods that the Israel's worshiped alongside him thus making them a polytheistic culture prior to their monotheistic conversion.

You've supplied no evidence whatsoever. In Egyptian temples dated circa 1400BC is found the inscription "the Land of the Shasu of Yahweh." The Israelites were always associated with YHWH. I surmize that you are just theorizing.

Freemasons only require that you believe in a God to be a member. They can be from any religion that believes in a God or be from no religion yet still believe in God (a deist)

Quite so. The bible tells Christians "Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?" 2 Cor 6:14.

I see it as wrong for Christians to yoke themselves to non-believing deists under the freemasonry label.

 

[Drizzt Do'Urden]

You've supplied no evidence whatsoever. In Egyptian temples dated circa 1400BC is found the inscription "the Land of the Shasu of Yahweh." The Israelites were always associated with YHWH. I surmize that you are just theorizing.


Quite so. The bible tells Christians "Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?" 2 Cor 6:14.

I see it as wrong for Christians to yoke themselves to non-believing deists under the freemasonry label.

I don't know what else to tell you... I know it's only wikipedia but I've studied religion for decades and I can't recall all my sources right now... Some of them are likely linked in the wikipedia article

Yahweh - Wikipedia

Taken from the link...

In the oldest biblical literature, Yahweh is a typical ancient Near Eastern "divine warrior", who leads the heavenly army against Israel's enemies;[8] he later became the main god of the Kingdom of Israel (Samaria) and of Judah,[9] and over time the royal court and temple PROMOTED Yahweh as the god of the entire cosmos, possessing all the positive qualities previously attributed to the other gods and goddesses.[10][11]

 

[Drizzt Do'Urden]

You've supplied no evidence whatsoever. In Egyptian temples dated circa 1400BC is found the inscription "the Land of the Shasu of Yahweh." The Israelites were always associated with YHWH. I surmize that you are just theorizing.


Quite so. The bible tells Christians "Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?" 2 Cor 6:14.

I see it as wrong for Christians to yoke themselves to non-believing deists under the freemasonry label.

Here is a really good explanation of Jewish polytheism.

 

[outlawState]

Here is a really good explanation of Jewish polytheism.

This is a mishmash of truth, lies and misunderstandings. Of course there is not going to be any evidence of monotheism in either ancient Babylon or Canaan, which are held up as reprobate and given over to polytheism.

Another falsehood that is made throughout is that acknowledgement of other gods indicates belief in other gods. Clearly it doesn't. As Paul the apostle says, idols, which even he concedes, are no gods.

There is nothing to suggest that the Jews borrowed from the Babynians as to the creation story in captivity. That story may already have been well known in the ancient world, but it was written down in Genesis with a monotheistic slant.

The author is wrong as to YHWH in the archaelogical record. There are inscriptions to the "Shasu of YHWH" in Egyptian temples circa 1400BC. There is nothing to suggest that J & E were "independent." Nothing to suggest that Gen 2-11 were "mythical" even if difficult of interpretation.

Nothing to suggest that the making of a "primary god" denotes lingering belief in other gods.

Of the pyramid builders it was found that "they lived a short life and ... suffered from bad health, very much likely because of how hard their work was." If not slaves they were synonymous with slaves,

etc. This video is pretty much akin to holohoax propaganda. Believe it if you want, but I choose not to.

All I will say is that the polytheists were not deists in the classical sense of "no interaction at all." Their gods expressed themselves in natural effects and events, but that of itself is not inconsistent with Deism, which rejects only divine revelation or direct intervention of God in the universe by miracles. As I read it, revelation in and by nature, natural laws and Providence, is all compatible with deism.

 

[Altfish]

Because they want to rid the world of annoying Christians, for example. Lots of reasons.

You have absolutely no basis to make that assertion. In fact it is almost scandalous. The only person leading a regime that used concentration camps was a catholic.
Atheists have no problem with people believing in god(s) - the problem is when the religious try to impose their irrational beliefs on us non-believers.

 

[metis]

Actually Hitler denounced and left the church long before becoming fuhrer, and then the NAZI's started killing Catholics once in power. Approx 1500 priests and bishops were murdered in Dachau alone, and Catholic churches were being burnt down or taken over for other purposes throughout NAZI-held Europe. After the Final Solution, the RCC was the next major group in line.

 

[Altfish]

Actually Hitler denounced and left the church long before becoming fuhrer, and then the NAZI's started killing Catholics once in power. Approx 1500 priests and bishops were murdered in Dachau alone, and Catholic churches were being burnt down or taken over for other purposes throughout NAZI-held Europe. After the Final Solution, the RCC was the next major group in line.

I think you need to check some facts.
The Nazi belt buckle carried the inscription, "Gott Mins Uns"
The Catholics who were persecuted were those who had the nerve to stand up to Hitler, unlike the Pope.