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Featured Religion is an Opinion

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Mackerni, Dec 22, 2015.

  1. Mackerni

    Mackerni Libertarian Unitarian

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    As I've said in other posts, faith is a combination of belief and hope. You believe in bigfoot. You hope you get a promotion. You don't have faith in bigfoot because most people do not want bigfoot to exist (to my knowledge). You don't have faith in a promotion because there could be evidence of you getting it, hence no belief.

    God exists. God does not exist. These are not facts. These are opinions. Something that cannot be falsified is unfalsifiable. Statements regarding unfalsifiable conclusions are opinions. Example: Almost everybody has a favorite color. I have three: Cobalt (blue), Onyx (black), and Pearl (white). If I said "the three best colors are cobalt, onyx, and pearl" or "I think the three best colors are cobalt, onyx, and pearl" both say the same thing. Both should be treated as opinions.

    To elaborate further, there is now strong evidence for natural processes that were once thought up as "God's Doing". Atheists are now saying, "Ah ha! We found evidence that God did NOT do this!" Some theists have not been compelled by their arguments, arguing against modern science. However, even the ones most compelled towards creationism have been convinced of short-term evolution. Which is something that we can actually prove.

    I understand that there is only one reality in our universe. The way I perceive it, though, is that how someone interprets a concept is drastically different than anyone else. Some may agree, some may disagree. I'm not a Christian, I don't believe in the Bible, yet my favorite passage in the Bible is in Corinthians 13:4-8, just like my Christian friend. I do not hold the same weight of those words to my heart, but like him, I agree with the message.

    When I was growing up, I thought God was synonymous with the word fate. "Thank God!" Translated to mean something like "Thank Fate!" or "Thank Luck!" I had nothing against God or Fate, but because of how I interpret those words, they didn't mean much to me. Now I understand that God has much larger role in many people's lives.

    Does God make you moral or immoral? No. God justifies the action, regardless of its morality. God is a placebo, and different religions offer you different pills that tells you that taking it will offer amazing results. You believe you are blessed, so you feel blessed. Religion offers you to be closer to community. Closer to God, in that respect.

    There is nothing wrong with taking the pill. There's always the placebo effect. However the case may be, there is no denying that all validity under Religion, Gods, and Placebos to be subjective. The question, "what if something was not finite?" is the basis to seminary schools, and teaches what I'd call the unnatural. Manifest Destiny might as well be called Man's Destiny. Unnatural things and Destiny can only be interpreted, subjectively, and nobody has the answers for these things.

    The funny thing is, is that I think if we're alive to see it (literally), we'll see the formation of sciences that would make those religious practices correct. Hence, why I see things as subjective. I see all religions as possible. If I died and went to Heaven right now, my first reaction would be: Who made this? Because, instinctively, I believe all afterlifes will be man-made.

    My faith is that all realities will be true, and under these realities people will get what they wish for, no matter the cost. Hence, it is a matter of what reality you want, not the reality we currently live in. Religion is Futurism. What you want is your opinion, not anybody else's.

    Therefore: Religion is an Opinion
     
    #1 Mackerni, Dec 22, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2015
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  2. Quintessence

    Quintessence Tale Weaver
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    Your post would be easier to read without all the unnecessary boldfacing, underlining, and italicizing. Can you remove all that for the visually challenged? My brain started short circuiting by the fourth paragraph because of it.
     
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  3. Mackerni

    Mackerni Libertarian Unitarian

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    Fixed. Sorry, I just like the added emphasis.
     
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  4. A Vestigial Mote

    A Vestigial Mote Well-Known Member

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    Religion:
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    Why? Why this:

    Followed by this:

    ???

    You have only accomplished in relaying that your "faith" has nothing to do with your "understanding." I could have saved you the trouble and explicitly told you that this was likely the case.

    Also, don't be "that guy" whose favorite colors are "cobalt" (specifically, as opposed to "blue"), "onyx" (specifically, as opposed to "black") and "pearl" (specifically, as opposed to "white"). I can't tell you exactly why you shouldn't do this, but if you can't come to that understanding yourself then there is probably little hope for you.
     
  5. Mackerni

    Mackerni Libertarian Unitarian

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    What is your point? They're both true. I could get into a huge, lengthy conversation with you about how (my) faith is the extrapolations of understanding. I understand that there's we live in a uni- (one) -verse (totality). Extropy, according to philosopher Max More, is, "The extent of a living organizational system's intelligence, functional order, vitality, vitality, energy, life, experience, and capacity and drive for improvement and growth." Imagine that concept existing in its totality. It doesn't exist right now, I don't believe. I live in the here and now, but I'm not a cynic. Understanding is knowing what exists now, and faith is knowing what you want in your future.

    Because I would sound like a pompous buffoon? Blue, black, and white are vague, and the colors cobalt, onyx, and pearl describe the shade of color of the color I like.
     
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  6. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    These are beliefs. These are not statements of views or judgements of something or someone (I have a view that God exists; even though it could be false; I'm just stating my opinion), it is just saying what someone believe is true (I believe god exists; it is not false). They hold no opinions about it because they believe they know it is a fact.

    This doesn't make sense. If religion offers amazing results and brings one closer to community and closer to god, how can they not find morality out of their connection with their community and their god? If this "placebo" is helping them find themselves and commune with their community and family, and they have good actions because of it, how is that not moral? How is it not moral that one believes they are blessed? Fact or not, to whoever believes it, it helps them see things in a better light. Their moral are better according to their faith. God does make one moral. It's just do people follow this god for the right or wrong reasons.
     
  7. A Vestigial Mote

    A Vestigial Mote Well-Known Member

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    No thank you.
     
  8. Mackerni

    Mackerni Libertarian Unitarian

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    The fact is that he or she believes in God. Or doesn't. Regarding God, the statement of view (opinion) is validated by subjective, personal experience with the influence of outside ideas, just like anything else. Someone tells you that pepperoni pizza tastes good. You taste pepperoni pizza. It tastes good to you. The personal and interpersonal agree, there is no conflict, therefore you like pepperoni pizza. Hence your opinion that pepperoni tastes good on a pizza. Someone tells you that God exists. You go to a church, and you uplifted by the message. The personal and interpersonal agree, there is no conflict, therefore you start believing in God. Pepperoni and beliefs exist, those are facts, but whether pepperoni is good on pizza or that believing in God is good are opinions.

    But people can find morality and community in other things. What about religions like Religion of Humanity, secular religions as they were called, which is described as, "Catholicism without the Christianity"? That itself brought people together without God. In fact, I am very sad that it no longer truly exists because I agree with everything they stand for, even more so than the Unitarians. Unitarians almost never talk about God, ironically, since Unitarian is the belief in One God. I would like to revive the concept myself, that is Religion of Humanity. This would be called for the religious who are not spiritual, rather than the spiritual who are not religious, heh. I'm not so much of a positivist myself as I am a extropian.
     
  9. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    It comes down to accepting that people believe differently. Some get morals from god and whether or not they have good or bad opinions about some of his teachings, they will always believe it: it is Not a matter of opinion to them. It is a Fact.
     
  10. Mackerni

    Mackerni Libertarian Unitarian

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    Yes ... just like it's a fact that I enjoy supreme pizza more than any other.
     
  11. Wu Wei

    Wu Wei ursus senum severiorum and ex-Bisy Backson

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    belief
    1. an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.
    2.trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something.

    hope
    1. a feeling of expectation and desire for a certain thing to happen.
    2.archaic - a feeling of trust.
    verb
    1. want something to happen or be the case.
    "he's hoping for an offer of compensation"

    opinion
    a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.
     
  12. David1967

    David1967 Well-Known Member
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  13. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Yes. You can say "In my opinion, this pizza is better than others" Thats your opinion.

    Or you can say "I believe this pizza is better than others" according to the religious, you are not voicing your opinion, you are stating a fact.
     
  14. Lyndon

    Lyndon "Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
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    Likewise atheism or disbelief is an opinion also. So what is the point???
     
  15. David1967

    David1967 Well-Known Member
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    Very interesting thread. Thanks for starting this. I agree completely that religion is an opinion. And most believe that their opinion is superior to the rest. I'm going to generalize here so please, no one take offense. The Jews believe God chose them. The Christians believe that Christ perfected (fulfilled) Judaism and expanded the new faith to the gentiles. The Muslims believe that Mohammed perfected both as the last prophet and messenger of God. And some Christians and Muslims both say there are grave consequences (hell) for rejecting their interpretation of God (again I am generalizing here ). You said above that "there is only one reality in our universe", and I agree. Like the Hindu holy man said "There is one Truth, wise men call it by different names". The problem with us as humans is our limited ability to comprehend the big picture. We are like the blind man who touched a small part of an elephant and was then asked to describe the whole creature. We are all looking through the same dim mirror that the Apostle Paul spoke of when he contemplated this mystery. And our flaw as humans IMHO, is the temptation to take our dim view and ,make it the only truth and condemn others who have a different view.
     
  16. Mackerni

    Mackerni Libertarian Unitarian

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    "I believe this pizza is better than others":
    FACT: I enjoy supreme pizza and thinks it tastes better than any other topping pizza. Many people I know also enjoy this variety on their pizza.
    OPINION: There are people who enjoy other kinds of pizza more, with a different way of tasting things than me.

    The opinion is not the belief itself. I enjoy some pizzas more than others, like I enjoy different toothpastes, laundry detergent, food, you name it, I enjoy different things of it more or less. The opinion is when you say, "this is better than this". Not everybody likes my pizza, toothpaste, deodorant, etc etc etc as much as I like my own.

    In that regard "I believe in a monotheistic God" is fact because the belief itself is true, but the opinion in question here is whether or not a monotheistic God could or would exist as how we know reality as it is today. You could also phrase it like this, "In my opinion a monotheistic God exists." The opinion holds true to that person making the claim, but whether or not a monotheistic God exists is an opinion and therefore subjective.
     
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  17. YmirGF

    YmirGF Bodhisattva

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    As an ardent atheist there is much in the OP that I agree with however it should be noted that emotion plays a huge part in religious beliefs. It's not just an analytical process. If anything the analytical process is puttied around the emotional element making it all seem much more rational.

    In other words, it's not just opinion, but rather opinion based on a significant emotional basis.
     
  18. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    Rather than a statement, which I find far too limiting, I prefer the following

    Belief
    a feeling or concept of certainty that someone or something exists or that something is true
    and

    Faith
    A trust in a belief.​
     
    #18 Skwim, Dec 22, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2015
  19. Mackerni

    Mackerni Libertarian Unitarian

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    You could go searching for the definition of faith, but it's a long list of relative concepts.

    Someone has Faith (or confidence, trust) in God because they accept in the validity of the Bible and have the expectation for them and their loved ones to go to Heaven after they die. Their Faith, confidence, trust, or belief, of the Christian monotheistic God forms their opinions and judgments as to whether God exists and to what purpose.

    B̶u̶t̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶c̶o̶u̶r̶s̶e̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶ ̶h̶a̶v̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶d̶e̶i̶s̶t̶s̶,̶ ̶w̶h̶o̶ ̶b̶e̶l̶i̶e̶v̶e̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶G̶o̶d̶ ̶b̶u̶t̶ ̶r̶e̶a̶l̶l̶y̶ ̶h̶a̶v̶e̶ ̶n̶o̶ ̶f̶a̶i̶t̶h̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶h̶i̶m̶.̶ ̶M̶a̶n̶y̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶A̶m̶e̶r̶i̶c̶a̶'̶s̶ ̶f̶o̶u̶n̶d̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶f̶a̶t̶h̶e̶r̶s̶ ̶w̶e̶r̶e̶ ̶d̶e̶i̶s̶t̶s̶.̶ ̶I̶t̶'̶s̶ ̶f̶u̶n̶n̶y̶ ̶t̶h̶o̶u̶g̶h̶,̶ ̶I̶ ̶w̶e̶n̶t̶ ̶a̶h̶e̶a̶d̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶b̶o̶u̶g̶h̶t̶ ̶d̶e̶i̶s̶t̶ ̶l̶i̶t̶e̶r̶a̶t̶u̶r̶e̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶i̶t̶ ̶w̶a̶s̶ ̶m̶o̶s̶t̶l̶y̶ ̶t̶a̶l̶k̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶a̶b̶o̶u̶t̶ ̶s̶c̶i̶e̶n̶c̶e̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶k̶n̶o̶w̶l̶e̶d̶g̶e̶ ̶m̶o̶r̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶n̶ ̶a̶n̶y̶t̶h̶i̶n̶g̶.
     
  20. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    What I am saying is:

    Belief: "Pizza is good" there is EDIT (No) views/judgements or analyzing. Its just a statement like "God exists".

    Fact: The peperoni, cheeze, garlic, etc stimulates my tongue to where the nerves send signals to my brain. He brain translates these signals as positive so my belief is substantiated.

    Because I have a belief that "Pizza is good" and my tongue and brain confirmed it, I can form an opinion based on this belief.

    For example:

    Opinion: "This pizza is better than yours" Now I used my belief and judgement or Opinion to contrast my pizza to yours.

    :leafwind: Going by RF citizens views here

    Many atheist would skip the belief. They have no need to say what they believe because what tbey believe is fact. It can be proven by the brain signals and language we use to define what tastes good. Belief, to many, is like faith...saying something with no evidence. If my mother loves me I know by what she says and does. So all is concrete.

    Because many atheist go off fact, their opinions (not beliefs) are logical (if they get their facts straight). Itz not depended on bekief "pizza is good even though there is no evidence to proove it" the facts/evidence makes their belief true. Now they can form an opinion.

    :fourleaf:

    The religious, on the other hand (not All: no generalizing) place their foundation in belief. Without belief they cant hold an opinion (aka make a judgement or point of view). So, if they "believe" god exist, thats their belief.

    Belief: God exist

    Fact: Because I felt his presence, read the bible, got insight when i did jumping jacks.

    Facts can be experiences too.

    Now they have a foundation: god exists.
    Now they have factz behind it: my experiencez

    They can form an opinion

    Opinion: My belief is better than yours.

    Most of us start with facts before we state our opinions bypassing unconfirmed beliefs. Believers start with their beliefs because they say not all facts can be trusted only their faith/intent/gut etc can then they form opinions around that.

    :palmtree:

    To the religious: religion is a fact not an opinion
    Objectively: Its a belief system.
    Subjectively: Each persons opinion "about" the belief depends on how they define it.

    You define it as an opinion; thats fine. Opinion of what? What is saying "religion is an opiniom" analyze or judge? Opinion of what? God exists? Ordin?

    Bring the foundation: the beliefs
    Then we can anylze it and make opinions
     
    #20 Unveiled Artist, Dec 22, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2015
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