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Religion and Politics

Discussion in 'Political Debates' started by LeaderNotFollower, Jun 9, 2004.

  1. LeaderNotFollower

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    Just to start off the debate:

    A lot of republicans are pro-life and pro-death penalty.
    A lot of democrats are pro-choice and anti-death penalty.

    This just does not make sense to me. Republicans (a good deal of them being Christian) are usually concerned with saving 'unborn' fetuses and preserving the sanctity of life. Do criminals not also fall under the category of living? By supporting the death penalty, aren't republicans violating the sanctity of life?

    Now as for democrats: fetuses are not sacred, until they commit a crime? Democrats believe a woman should be able to abort her fetus, a practice many people believe is murder. Yet when a person on death row, not worthy of keeping his life, a lot guiltier and more sinnful then the fetus, is about to be killed, the democrats throw up their arms.

    I believe both parties have their beliefs mixed up. I am actually in favor of the death penalty and abortion. I think it needs to be a lot more legal than it is right now. But this just puts me right in the middle of two hot debates, unable to take sides. Just wondering what others thought of my little observance.
     
  2. Ardhanariswar

    Ardhanariswar I'm back!

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    being hindu, i believe in reincarnation. so the aborted baby gets to have another better life with a mother that does want him.

    as for the death penalty, i believe that its God who judges and punishes criminals accordingly. on the other hand, do we really want our tax money to nourish and shelter these people? sure, well. i dunno, i dont pay taxes yet (im too young). oh well. everyone who is sorry deserves a second chance. you cant mess with God's will.

    plus, the U.S.'s judicial system is fallible. just look at O.J. Simpson.


    i think people shouldnt brand themselves (nor should you stereotype). some people had differeing views. i dunno.
     
  3. LCMS Sprecher

    LCMS Sprecher Member

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    Abortion is murder plain and simple. A human being comes into this world as soon as the egg is fertilized and it becomes an embryo. Now abortion advocates get around this by saying people are not people until later on in the embryo's life. If this was the case, I could go around and kill people because I viewed them as not being people (say I set my age of a "real" person at thirty). As far as capital punishment, it is just punishment for those who have stolen life from others.
     
  4. Corban

    Corban Member

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    I will whole heartedly agree with your observation that most politicians are mixed up in thier views. I am against abortion and again the death penalty however i do not see that as a contradiction. Taking innocent life is wrong,as with the case of abortion. but sometimes taking life is justified, like in the case of self defense or with capital punishment when someone else has killed an innocent person, has committed murder of innocent blood, then their blood should be forfeit to pay the price of their actions. an unborn fetus is innocent and killing it is wrong.
     
  5. Ardhanariswar

    Ardhanariswar I'm back!

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    wow, thats like the opposite of me. well.. sorta.
    i believe that capital punishment and abortion is wrong. but young teens are going to concieve. advocate birth control instead. whatever. i mean. if people had medical problems, they should do it. making it legal will make it safer. but because im hindu, i believe that the soul gets reborn, instead of going off to purgatory in Christianity's case.

    as for the deathpenality, no. i believe that God should decided the judgement. people are going to get abortions whether its legal or not, but we can stop the death penalty. afterall, didnt jesus say turn the other cheek? if we kill the murderer, wont we be murderers? murder is not justified. i guess.

    i may seem two faced. but i dont believe in abortion. but it should still be legal....................................................... you can stop it by preaching i guess.
     
  6. Runt

    Runt Well-Known Member

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    I think it is simply a differing view of the status of the one being killed:

    For Republicans it is a question of "how innocent or guilty is the one being killed?" A baby is innocent and has no say in the matter. It didn't "chose" to be born to a mother who did not want it. An innocent baby should not be killed. A killer on the other hand is guility and made a choice. He knew in advance that his actions meant his life was forfeit if he was caught and he chose to kill anyway; therefore he "chose" to die.

    For Democrats it is more a question of "how physically and mentally developed is the one being killed". A fetus is at a stage in its development where physically and mentally it is not too different than an animal. We kill animals when they are inconvenient. A fully grown adult, however, is a "real human". He thinks and has had a life. He may have people who depend on him. And then he might be an innocent who is merely a victim to a flawed justice system.
     
  7. LCMS Sprecher

    LCMS Sprecher Member

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    What does abortion avoid though? There are other ways of finding a proper home for unwanted children, primarily through foster care. The death penalty can find Biblical root in Genesis 9:6 which reads as follows:

    "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man." (NIV)

    In the Lutheran Church we recognize that there are two kingdoms, the right and the left. The right being the kingdom of heaven and the left being the earthly kingdom. The kingdom of the left has been given power by the kingdom of the right (God) to carry out measures to protect society and our world. Such measures include wars of defense, dealing with criminals, taxes etc... (i.e. let Caeser's be Caeser's). Therefore, I believe, in congruence with my church, that God has given the government the right to carry out capital punishment.
     
  8. LeaderNotFollower

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    Good points.

    LCMS and Corban:

    I suppose we will never be able to come to an agreement because we are getting right back to the age old heart of the abortion debate. I believe that a fetus does not have its own life until its umbilical is cut. Now take a look at this definition:
    An organism that grows, feeds, and is sheltered on or in a different organism while contributing nothing to the survival of its host.
    I would say that this definition is discriptive of a fetus, right? Well this is actually the The American Heritage Dictionary definition of a parasite. Just something to think about.

    Now as for the death penalty, Gerani makes a good point when they mention that the death penalty takes the 'judgement' out of Gods hands and puts it into human hands. Is the murder justified if we are doing all the judging ourselves. Plus there is always a chance, as some have mentioned, that an innocent has been found guilty. A good movie to watch on the topic - "The Life of David Gale."

    For those of you that are taking the Republican viewpoint (abortion - bad/death penalty - good), you feel that the murder of an adult on death row is justified, but abortion isn't. What about all the good uses abortion has? Rape, incest, danger to mother, diseased child? Would you rather these children suffer in some underfunded orphanage or die shortly after their birth? Because the fetus has not yet had its own life, life is not being taken away from it. It is only a biological mass until it starts eating and breathing by itself. I am not saying that abortion should be used as a form of birth control. People need to accept some responsibility for their lives. But there is no doubt in my mind that abortion needs to be legal everywhere, for the situations that really require it. As for the death penalty, well I'm actually still a little shaky on that one.

    Would it surprise anyone that I am a registered Republican?
     
  9. LeaderNotFollower

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    "Therefore, I believe, in congruence with my church, that God has given the government the right to carry out capital punishment. "

    LCMS,

    Instead of believing this because your church told you to, why don't you believe it because you want to?
     
  10. LCMS Sprecher

    LCMS Sprecher Member

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    I do believe it because I want to. I know... that's hard to believe.
     
  11. LCMS Sprecher

    LCMS Sprecher Member

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    I would also note that there are more adoption parents here in the United States than there are kids for. It also goes back to responsiblity. You end up in an abortion situation because you were messing around when shouldn't have been. Those people should also take responsiblity for their actions. The U.S. has become a quick fix nation. Mess your life up, well we can fix your problem in a couple weeks and you will never have to worry about it again. That is the mantra of today which adds to the greater expansion of abortions.
     
  12. LeaderNotFollower

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    Well you're right. But remember that abortion is a big deal. I don't know if it's as quick a fix as you think. In many situations, women that have had an abortion experience depression and other mental problems. The problem with Americans, as you quite rightly pointed out, is that we are lazy. And, we often do not accept responsibility for our actions.

    I believe sex is a recreational activity. Why else would God/evolution have made it pleasureable to us. You know only humans and dolphans receive pleasure from the act of sex. All other animals do it purely from instinct, and only to reproduce. Sex being enjoyable is a sign that it was not just intended for procreation. So this being the case, humans need to be able to prevent conception at certain times, which is fine. But the key to regulated legal abortion is education. If schools were free to education their students about sex, birth control use would go up, and abortions would go down. And I know some people love the argument that if we teach children about sex, they will do it. The message I have for those people is to get their head out of the 1950s. The age that people are having sex these days is getting younger and younger, and this is because of a lack of education. Keeping sex education out of schools is what is driving the number of abortions and teenage mothers up. Ah, I've vented.
     
  13. LCMS Sprecher

    LCMS Sprecher Member

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    Indeed, God made sex enjoyable. However, he also made it as a gift to be shared between a husband and a wife.
     
  14. LeaderNotFollower

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    Marriage is, quite completely, a human invention. And was developed because men needed someone to care for their children when they were out hunting or farming or such. Marriage is for having children and raising a family. Before you get married, your activities are opened to you.
     
  15. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

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    I do not believe in abortion, but I do support birth control whole-heartedly. I agree with LeaderNotFollower-- kids need to be taught this stuff! I started a thread of birth control and how it is banned by the Catholics, etc.

    I don't think that sex is a purely recreational activity-- for me it has strong emotional ties, but I suppose that this type of thing would vary from person to person, depending on personality.
     
  16. Mr Spinkles

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    Leader--

    You're comparison of a human fetus to a parasite is a bit of a stretch, especially considering the fact that a fetus does contribute to survival...namely, the survival of our species!

    As to the topic of this thread-- you are right, there are many contradictions with Republicans and Democrats. For example, believing in the freedom to carry firearms is technically a 'liberal' view ('individual rights' over 'greater good of society')....but obviously our political parties don't think so--the Dems don't like guns, and the Republicans love 'em.

    In fact, the Iraq war is a gigantic, hypocritical flip-flop for many Americans. After no WMD's were found to truly justify a 'self-defense' argument, many conservatives started claiming to support the Iraq war on the grounds that we are 'doing the right thing' by selflessly coming to the defense of an oppressed people......however, this has traditionally been a liberal view (remember liberals think the U.S. should use more of its resources for helping people in global hotspots, even if it is not really in our interests to do so).

    In the same token, liberals have come out against America going out of its way just to help the Iraqis when Saddam did not appear to be a direct threat to us....this is traditionally conservative thinking (traditional conservatives generally don't think the U.S. should waste resources in pointless conflicts around the globe unless there is a clear, selfish reason to do so).
     
  17. LeaderNotFollower

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    Mr Sprinkles:

    All good points. A lot of it has to do with the ability, or lack of ability, to concede. These days the conservatives seem to be having that problem a lot, but it tranfers from both parties throughout history. When no WMDs were found, all the conservatives had to do was say: "We were wrong." But no, not in American, that could never happen. And unfortunately, I think a lot of Democrats are against the war just because Republicans are for it. Oh well, we should just bring back the Populist Party.
     
  18. Ardhanariswar

    Ardhanariswar I'm back!

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    hmm...perhaps. but what if you lived in a communist country??

    i still believe that its God's judgement on the sinner, not ours. afterall, our judicial system is not perfect. as i mentioned, look at O.J. simpson.
    life in prison seems a lot reasonable. then when they die, they can face the true 'death' of never seeing God in eternal paradise, or whatever.
     
  19. LCMS Sprecher

    LCMS Sprecher Member

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    Communist governments and their persecution is a prime example of how our world has been tainted by sin. However, we must consider, did Jesus did not submit to Pontius Pilate (a pagan ruler) when faced with execution. Our world is not perfect because sin taints it. God gives governments power to extend their authority over their subjects for the subjects protection. When I a government abuses these powers it either needs to be reformed or destroyed and a new one put in its place.
     
  20. LeaderNotFollower

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    Gerani:

    "i still believe that its God's judgement on the sinner"

    If it's God's judgement call on guilty humans, why don't we have more criminals dropping dead? Why do we have innocent people in prison? Why would God let a criminal live, and possibly go about commiting more crimes, on earth, if He were really the true judge?

    LCMS:

    "When I a government abuses these powers it either needs to be reformed or destroyed and a new one put in its place."

    Don't you think the American government is abusing its powers by killing people, when that would, in theory, be God's judgement call? Why haven't we been distroyed yet (although, our distruction might be in the near future)?
    Plus don't you think that this sin, that apparently is everywhere, kind of puts a negative light on life? Wouldn't life seem a little more pleasent if we pinned sins on individuals and not gave it a presence in the world?
     
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