Religion and extra terrestrial life:

[dianaiad]

"Why is it important to you that it does not?"

What a ridiculous question.

Is it? Then humor me and have a laugh. Answer it. It did seem rather clear that it IS important to you that it does not.

 

[Jeremiahcp]

Is it? Then humor me and have a laugh. Answer it. It did seem rather clear that it IS important to you that it does not.

It is a ridiculous question because it superimposes a position that I neither expressed or have. If you want to have a honest debate let me know.

 

[Quintessence]

What do you mean? Your religion does not recognize the existence of other planets?

Don't be ridiculous. Do you not understand what the word "irrelevant" means?

 

[dianaiad]

It is a ridiculous question because it superimposes a position that I neither expressed or have. If you want to have a honest debate let me know.

With all due respect, you are the one who dismissed the entire question of how such a discovery would affect religion by claiming that we can't go to one. That's an entirely different conversation, actually.

....though I do owe you an apology here; I was conflating the answer of another poster with yours, and reacting to both as if you had been the only one expressing this opinion. For that I am sorry.

But let's dial this back a bit. It doesn't matter at all whether we will ever actually be able to go further than Mars--if we even get our lazy and political butts off the planet to go there. We know a great deal about the universe without having had to fly around black holes or quasars...or any of the hundreds of planets we have already identified. It IS possible that one of those planets has a species capable of sending radio/whatever waves out that we can, just perhaps, identify as artificially produced. The question I asked was not whether we would ever physically encounter another planet full of sentient beings. It was what the discovery of the existence of those beings would do to our very earthly religious opinions and beliefs.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

... Finding one that has people on it (sentient or not) isn't going to be a problem for us, [emphasis aded]

 

[dianaiad]

I don't see that it would affect much of anything. One thing I've read about regarding life on other planets is that, even if there is life on other planets, it may not necessarily be compatible with life on Earth. That is, even if we go to some other planet and visit, even if it looks habitable, there could be microbes or viruses which might be harmless to lifeforms which evolved on the planet, but deadly to us (and vice versa).

I think those of us who grew up with Star Trek and Star Wars might imagine outer space as a fun and exciting place, full of interesting aliens, fast spaceships, and all kinds of thrills and fun. But then I think of movies like 2001: A Space Odyssey, which shows space as a vast, mostly empty, and rather frightening place.

It makes me think that "God," if there ever was one, is probably dead by now. For all intents and purposes, we're living on our own on a tiny ball of mud inside a bubble of air. There may be other planets with sentient species in similar situations. But until we can find a way to communicate or travel through interstellar space, we're not going to be able to find out much more.

I guess I have been unclear in my original question. It was not about whether we would ever encounter another species. It was what the mere existence of another planet full of sentient beings would do to basic religious thought here on earth. I have run into many that were very, er...'earth centric,' where the very possibility that there COULD be other planets with life on them would crack their basic understanding of God and creation wide open. Not many, especially now, that's true.

Perhaps I could rephrase that question: what happens to religious beliefs when and if it is discovered that God created more sentient beings that earth humans, whether or not we EVER see/communicate with them?

 

[dianaiad]

You are laughing at my use of 'people?'

I used that deliberately, y'know. I figure that a 'person' would be a being accepted as one by the society in which he lives, and I also figure that 'person' and 'homo sapiens' is only synonymous...sort of...because we don't know, yet, any other species that we can view as equal in brain power and abilities.

You DO realize that WE sometimes refuse 'personhood' to human beings, and allow non human constructs to be called 'persons,' right? We do, after all, call corporations 'persons,' come to think of it, for certain things. It's an applied societal label, not a biological classification.

Therefore, while we won't find homo sapiens on other planets, it's quite possible that we will find PEOPLE.

 

[Jeremiahcp]

With all due respect, you are the one who dismissed the entire question of how such a discovery would affect religion by claiming that we can't go to one. That's an entirely different conversation, actually.

....though I do owe you an apology here; I was conflating the answer of another poster with yours, and reacting to both as if you had been the only one expressing this opinion. For that I am sorry.

But let's dial this back a bit. It doesn't matter at all whether we will ever actually be able to go further than Mars--if we even get our lazy and political butts off the planet to go there. We know a great deal about the universe without having had to fly around black holes or quasars...or any of the hundreds of planets we have already identified. It IS possible that one of those planets has a species capable of sending radio/whatever waves out that we can, just perhaps, identify as artificially produced. The question I asked was not whether we would ever physically encounter another planet full of sentient beings. It was what the discovery of the existence of those beings would do to our very earthly religious opinions and beliefs.

"With all due respect, you are the one who dismissed the entire question of how such a discovery would affect religion by claiming that we can't go to one. "

No, I didn't.

 

[Scott C.]

I guess I have been unclear in my original question. It was not about whether we would ever encounter another species. It was what the mere existence of another planet full of sentient beings would do to basic religious thought here on earth. I have run into many that were very, er...'earth centric,' where the very possibility that there COULD be other planets with life on them would crack their basic understanding of God and creation wide open. Not many, especially now, that's true.

Perhaps I could rephrase that question: what happens to religious beliefs when and if it is discovered that God created more sentient beings that earth humans, whether or not we EVER see/communicate with them?

As a fellow Mormon, I think I completely understand your question and I think it's interesting. We Mormons have this verse of scripture:

That by him (Jesus Christ), and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God.

So Mormons believe that God created many worlds inhabited by his sons and daughters, not just this earth. Are other faiths (especially Christians) open to this idea or do they see planet earth as the exclusive home for God's children? In this one Mormon's opinion, I don't know if these other worlds spoken of in our scriptures are within our universe (whatever that means) or in another dimension altogether (whatever that means).

Let's say you're Hindu and believe in reincarnation. If there are life forms on other planets, do they also reincarnate? Might you reincarnate from an animal on this earth to another life form on a different planet? Or would the reincarnation process apply only to planet earth? Is there Karma for creatures on other planets?

If you believe in life after death for humans and/or other forms of life, are you open to life after death for life forms on other planets?

How does your religious model contemplate life on other planets, be that life similar to a plant, as intelligent as a human, far more intelligent than us, or "just like" us, being fellow sons and daughters of God?

 

[David1967]

I strongly believe there's life on other planets. Doesn't bother me at all. Just more glory to God through His wondrous creation.

This.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

You are laughing at my use of 'people?'

No, I'm laughing at your use of "people ... (sentient or not)". What, pray tell, would constitute a non-sentient person?

You DO realize that WE sometimes refuse 'personhood' to human beings, and allow non human constructs to be called 'persons,' right? We do, after all, call corporations 'persons,' come to think of it, for certain things. It's an applied societal label, not a biological classification.

Therefore, while we won't find homo sapiens on other planets, it's quite possible that we will find PEOPLE.

Oh my: so many capitalized words!

 

[dianaiad]

No, I'm laughing at your use of "people ... (sentient or not)". What, pray tell, would constitute a non-sentient person?

OK....how about most corporations? (grin)...but I do get your point.

Oh my: so many capitalized words!

Well, all caps are considered 'shouting' and is rude. Bolding would have worked, too, as would italicizing. However, now that you have given me your opinion about my choice of emphasis and grammar, and shown me your level of erudition and appreciative mockery, perhaps you could address the actual topic of the thread?

My curmudgeonly self would appreciate it.

 

[Shia Islam]

So.

We have discovered other planets...some which might even support life like our own. I'm wondering: my OWN belief system not only wouldn't be bothered by it, we've figured that there were lots of planets out there, "And worlds without number have I created," which do. Finding one that has people on it (sentient or not) isn't going to be a problem for us, nor will we have to change/adjust/fix our doctrines/beliefs in the face of it. WE will say "we told you so," actually.

What about everybody else? How DOES the discovery of new planets, and perhaps planets that have life...perhaps even sentient life...on them affect the various theisms?

I Shia Islam, I remember a hadith saying that :
God has a million universes and a million Adams (Adam is the father of mankind).

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

..., perhaps you could address the actual topic of the thread?

Fair enough:

1. I would consider the discovery of extra-terrestrial life evidence that life is ubiquitous.
2. I would consider the discovery of extra-terrestrial intelligence suggestive of preternatural agency.

Note, by the way, the article referenced in "A Cosmic Imperative?".

 

[sovietchild]

Don't be ridiculous. Do you not understand what the word "irrelevant" means?

There is people out there who claim to believe in flat earth.

 

[dianaiad]

Fair enough:

1. I would consider the discovery of extra-terrestrial life evidence that life is ubiquitous.
2. I would consider the discovery of extra-terrestrial intelligence suggestive of preternatural agency.

Note, by the way, the article referenced in "A Cosmic Imperative?".

In regards to #2.. THAT'S interesting. Why? I've met quite a few atheist types who consider that the discovery of extra-terrestrial intelligence would be evidence the other way. I'd be interested in your thoughts on this.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

In regards to #2.. THAT'S interesting. Why? I've met quite a few atheist types who consider that the discovery of extra-terrestrial intelligence would be evidence the other way. I'd be interested in your thoughts on this.

I need to leave soon, but I'll come back to it later this evening or tomorrow morning, In the interim, please consider reading:

• Can SETI Succeed, and
• Planet of Bacteria

In short, I suspect that ETI is, either an unintended consequence of an astoundingly large number happenstance, or it is the result of intent, and the enormity of the former is mst likely what stands behind, for example, E. O. Wilson's "provisional deism."

 

[viole]

So.

We have discovered other planets...some which might even support life like our own. I'm wondering: my OWN belief system not only wouldn't be bothered by it, we've figured that there were lots of planets out there, "And worlds without number have I created," which do. Finding one that has people on it (sentient or not) isn't going to be a problem for us, nor will we have to change/adjust/fix our doctrines/beliefs in the face of it. WE will say "we told you so," actually.

What about everybody else? How DOES the discovery of new planets, and perhaps planets that have life...perhaps even sentient life...on them affect the various theisms?

If religion survives evolution by natural selection then I do not see how it cannot survive extraterrestrial life. I know several Christians who embrace evolution. Don't ask me how they do it, but they seem to manage,

You just need to add an extra level of metaphors in the reading of the Bible, apparently.

Because this is how (Christian) religion survives:

1) When is it obvious that the Bible is literally wrong: introduce metaphors or symbolic language

2) Keep the rest literal as long as case 1) does not strike. Change accordingly when it does.

In other words: hope springs eternal.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Kilgore Trout]

People are quite good at using whatever information they encounter to support and rationalize their current beliefs.

 

[Fire_Monkey]

So.

We have discovered other planets...some which might even support life like our own. I'm wondering: my OWN belief system not only wouldn't be bothered by it, we've figured that there were lots of planets out there, "And worlds without number have I created," which do. Finding one that has people on it (sentient or not) isn't going to be a problem for us, nor will we have to change/adjust/fix our doctrines/beliefs in the face of it. WE will say "we told you so," actually.

What about everybody else? How DOES the discovery of new planets, and perhaps planets that have life...perhaps even sentient life...on them affect the various theisms?

Well I am of the opinion that the Universe is just TEEMING with Intelligent Life. The sheer numbers of planets out there dictates that chances are vastly better that we here on the Third Rock are not alone. And that, indeed, there is nothing at all special about us. Why should there be? We are in the backwaters of a very ordinary spiral galaxy, and our planet is a very average-sized one containing no exotic elements or chemicals. And we orbit aorund a very average, middle-aged, Main Sequence star that we call the Sun.

If only one out a a million planets our there had intelligent life on them, that would allow Billions of them to exist. And I would further opine that on the Overall Intelligent Level of the Cosmos, we Earthlings probably rank somewhere in the lower bottom. Sorry, but the age of our planet (a mere 4.6 billion years in a Universe Three times that old) dictates that this is mathematically likely.

Religion? Man made dogma, for the most part. So I also think that many ET civilizations out there have religions. They have their own made-up gods as do we. And some of the more intelligent species out there have outgrown religion and belief in gods. Much as we have for the most part outgrown belief in elves and fairies and a Flat Earth and Alchemy.

And since Jesus of course was a mere mortal and not anything close to divine or much less a god, none of these other ET civilizations have ever heard of him. Just as we are not familiar with their gods, who are just as viable as our own ones are. Which is to say, not very! LOL