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Religion a confidence game?

corynski

Reality First!
Premium Member
What would you think of a business that peddles products that it cannot demonstrate that it can deliver? A scam, right?

Religions strike me as entirely analogous, peddling afterlives, invisible deities, uninvestigatable swarms of saints, angels, spirits etc. Requests for verification are met with "have faith", "trust me", "the more absurd it is, the more it must be true", etc, all marks of the con artist.

I suppose that the first prehistoric tribesman who found that he could escape the daily grind of survival by pretending to talk to gods realized quickly that he was onto a good thing (for him). And so it goes on.

Is there any reason to suppose that religions are not scams?

You have to think of religion and belief in anthropological terms for it to make any sense. Belief and religion were the glue that bound together each hunting and gathering group of emerging humans. And such belief was valid for life, unless you were kicked out, ostracized, and then every other group knew you were not one of them because you didn't know their god. Consider that small hunting and gathering groups were the social structure, and they possessed no science or real knowledge, living very short lives and I would think in constant danger from both animals and other small groups. And this went on for hundreds of thousands of years..... that is what's so hard to believe. Some writers such as Julian Jaynes have suggested that the first gods were the visions and voices that presented to sleeping humans. But this is not taught to children nor is mythology, a study of the thousands of gods and goddesses created by humans. If there are no gods, nor a supernatural, the universe presents a very bleak picture doesn't it. So why not sell future happiness and well-being, and throw in forgiveness for being dumb in the bargain? Trust me, I promise you will go to heaven......... Maybe scam isn't the exact word we're searching for, but seems very close........
 

Grandliseur

Well-Known Member
What would you think of a business that peddles products that it cannot demonstrate that it can deliver? A scam, right?

Religions strike me as entirely analogous, peddling afterlives, invisible deities, uninvestigatable swarms of saints, angels, spirits etc. Requests for verification are met with "have faith", "trust me", "the more absurd it is, the more it must be true", etc, all marks of the con artist.

I suppose that the first prehistoric tribesman who found that he could escape the daily grind of survival by pretending to talk to gods realized quickly that he was onto a good thing (for him). And so it goes on.

Is there any reason to suppose that religions are not scams?
That would be the view of an atheist. Do you also believe your parents fictional? If you asked a family member for help for something while you were away on vacation and found the important task done when you returned, would you assume it that fairy god mother had done it, or your parents that you requested help from!

Christians have plenty of personal experience with prayers being answered; our Bible have been verified in all 3 dimensions, so to say. That we then have churches who are into things not in scripture, and into evil at times, is not the fault of Christ or of God.

That you cannot see things either now or in the future, is obvious.
 

Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
What would you think of a business that peddles products that it cannot demonstrate that it can deliver? A scam, right?

Religions strike me as entirely analogous, peddling afterlives, invisible deities, uninvestigatable swarms of saints, angels, spirits etc. Requests for verification are met with "have faith", "trust me", "the more absurd it is, the more it must be true", etc, all marks of the con artist.

I suppose that the first prehistoric tribesman who found that he could escape the daily grind of survival by pretending to talk to gods realized quickly that he was onto a good thing (for him). And so it goes on.

Is there any reason to suppose that religions are not scams?
The bible defines pure religion as visiting widows and fatherless in their affliction and keeping one's self unspotted from the world.

Religion is something you do -not so much what it can do for you.
If our ways do not change, it does not matter what we are given -because we will only ruin it.

The Ten Commandments could "deliver" a paradise -if everyone did them.
God can deliver eternal life if we do them -because eternal lawlessness would be a nightmare.
Even if not, doing the latter commandments would still cause a paradise during this life.

However, we are born essentially ignorant, and it is extremely difficult to do things right the first time -and to educate successive generations to do the same -much less expect them to always choose correctly.
Therefore, anything more than what we now have depends on having another opportunity to do things right when we are finally willing and able.

The fact that such things must happen in the future does not mean religion -more specifically, God -cannot deliver.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
That would be the view of an atheist.

Not necessarily. It happens to be the view of many an atheist, and for that matter of many theists as well.

But that is not a function of atheism or even of theism. Rather, it is a reflection of a reputation that religion developed.

Here in Brazil it has become a cliche to claim belief in God coupled with refusal to associate with any religion. I think that at least one of our forum members does likewise.

Religion does not have to be defined in such a way, and IMO should not. But the fact remains that it is a popular conception, for good or worse.


Do you also believe your parents fictional? If you asked a family member for help for something while you were away on vacation and found the important task done when you returned, would you assume it that fairy god mother had done it, or your parents that you requested help from!

What is this question supposed to address? It does not make any clear sense at first glance.


Christians have plenty of personal experience with prayers being answered; our Bible have been verified in all 3 dimensions, so to say.

So, you are arguing that divine intervention is real and discernible?

I suppose that is technically possible, but it sure does not look very likely from the available evidence. Quite on the contrary actually.

That we then have churches who are into things not in scripture, and into evil at times, is not the fault of Christ or of God.

I am aware of that claim. For what it is worth.


That you cannot see things either now or in the future, is obvious.

If a promise is made and not fulfilled, does that reflect a flaw in he who makes the promise, or in he who hears it?
 

Looncall

Well-Known Member
That would be the view of an atheist. Do you also believe your parents fictional? If you asked a family member for help for something while you were away on vacation and found the important task done when you returned, would you assume it that fairy god mother had done it, or your parents that you requested help from!

Christians have plenty of personal experience with prayers being answered; our Bible have been verified in all 3 dimensions, so to say. That we then have churches who are into things not in scripture, and into evil at times, is not the fault of Christ or of God.

That you cannot see things either now or in the future, is obvious.

Nah, the bible is not verified. It is clear that neither exodus nor the flood happened, for two examples among many. It's just a collection of folk tales and tribal and religious propaganda.

I have evidence for my parents: gods, not so much.

I think the phrase "hook, line and sinker" is appropriate to your post.
 

Looncall

Well-Known Member
It sure can be constructive to remind ourselves every now and then that there are such things as religions that do not much resemble Christianity.

If they include notions of the supernatural, they belong in the same basket: conduits for ancient errors and superstitions into the present.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
If they include notions of the supernatural, they belong in the same basket: conduits for ancient errors and superstitions into the present.
I somewhat agree, but it depends considerably on how much emphasis there is in supernaturalism. But most of all, it depends on how much care they have to avoid that trap.

IIRC word has it that the Amish, specifically, have learned to deal with those dangers admirably well. We owe it to ourselves to be prepared to find, value and encourage such exceptions.
 

Grandliseur

Well-Known Member
Not necessarily. It happens to be the view of many an atheist, and for that matter of many theists as well.

But that is not a function of atheism or even of theism. Rather, it is a reflection of a reputation that religion developed.

(1.)Here in Brazil it has become a cliche to claim belief in God coupled with refusal to associate with any religion. I think that at least one of our forum members does likewise.

Religion does not have to be defined in such a way, and IMO should not. But the fact remains that it is a popular conception, for good or worse.

(2)What is this question supposed to address? It does not make any clear sense at first glance.

So, you are arguing that divine intervention is real and discernible?

(2b)I suppose that is technically possible, but it sure does not look very likely from the available evidence. Quite on the contrary actually.

I am aware of that claim. For what it is worth.

(3)If a promise is made and not fulfilled, does that reflect a flaw in he who makes the promise, or in he who hears it?
You surprised me a bit, though later you kind of made up for it by saying you don't believe.

1. Let me tell you in line with your statements, that I, though considering myself Christian, at the moment have separated myself from any church. In this, I am without association with any church but surely associated with a religious viewpoint, in the strongest terms possible. My separation is due to the fact that I see all churches as containing severe flaws.

2.
Me: Do you also believe your parents fictional? If you asked a family member for help for something while you were away on vacation and found the important task done when you returned, would you assume it that fairy god mother had done it, or your parents that you requested help from!
You: What is this question supposed to address? It does not make any clear sense at first glance.

Well, since I took you for an atheist, which later seemed to be justified, I made the point that when we have interaction with people that this interaction leaves us knowing with whom and why this interaction occurs. In the case of interaction with God, the same thing happens. 2b. If I pray for something specific to happen and on more than one occasion, if I receive answers to my prayers exactly as asked for - it leads me to understand that God exists. I heard about an experiment with a mouse / rat once. The animal was put into water and swam for its dear life. Just before it tired out and drowned, it was saved. Soon, as the experiment was repeated, the animal came to rely on being saved. It struggled for shorter and shorter time before giving up and consequently being saved. It came to know - that someone was there for it. While this experiment could have a horrible conclusion depending on the scientist, in the case of God, we come to know he is there for us.
3. what promise are you referring to?
 

Grandliseur

Well-Known Member
Nah, the bible is not verified. It is clear that neither exodus nor the flood happened, for two examples among many. It's just a collection of folk tales and tribal and religious propaganda.

I have evidence for my parents: gods, not so much.

I think the phrase "hook, line and sinker" is appropriate to your post.
I am not really surprised. That is the viewpoint of many nowadays. Still, so many of those who say this have not gone searching to verify their disbeliefs, and many of the same people are happy to believe palm-reading, horoscopes, etc. Many of the same people believe things that are off the charts vis-a-vis the Biblical teachings.
We have a Big Bang teaching where a mysterious singularity inflates (explodes). Black holes do not explode; have never done so in any observed manner. This inflation / explosion should have caused equal amounts of matter and anti-matter to come to be, which should have cancelled each other out and left us with a big fat Zero. Next, this inflation, that couldn't happen, created a universe of orderly galaxies, solar systems, - without any assistance, no causality at all in effect. Order in itself is information; thus, the Big Bang as it has come to be was not just a matter creation, it was also an information creation epoch, again without causality. Finally, all the ecosystems that worked perfectly until human intervention, with all their complex lifeforms - just up and popped into existence, order, information, energy all without causality. And, to top it off, our human brains, the most complex mechanism we know of - also just came to be, no cause, all effect. Yes, indeed, you are right - "hook, line and sinker" is appropriate. There really is no bridging of our disparity in beliefs.

Have a nice day. I may just leave my dirty dishes for a few years to see if they might evolve themselves clean. Folk tales, modern ones are quite hilarious.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
@Grandliseur

Thanks for replying. Some clarifications:

I am very much an atheist. It took me a while to fully understand that, because social pressure for pretending otherwise is so overwhelming. But that is what I am. No big deal, no decision involved.

Common as it is, I never quite understood how a believer in the Abrahamic God might see a point in keeping the belief while also keeping apart from an actual Church. Belief is not something that I value, unlike religiosity proper.

But right now I find myself wondering if it could not be an indication of rejection of blind following (which is a good thing) that might eventually develop into either Deism or a Dharmic attitude (which are even better things). I am uncertain, because I do not think the insistence on valuing belief for belief's sake is a good sign.

I am not sure why you are asking me about interactins with God, since they are not something that I either seek or believe to exist.

As for appeals for the existence of divine intervention, well, I guess I just don't think they are healthy.

The promise that I mentioned was that of the existence of God (and by extension of the divine interventions that you talked about). I just can't in good faith encourage valuing such a subject matter. Even attempts to consider whether it might be "true" are not something that I see under a good light. They strike me as going adrift.
 

tayla

My dog's name is Tayla
What would you think of a business that peddles products that it cannot demonstrate that it can deliver? A scam, right?

Religions strike me as entirely analogous, peddling afterlives, invisible deities, uninvestigatable swarms of saints, angels, spirits etc. Requests for verification are met with "have faith", "trust me", "the more absurd it is, the more it must be true", etc, all marks of the con artist.
Yes, I agree. Revealed religions and revealed spiritual paths are untrustworthy sources of knowledge.

But also, materialism is merely an assumption. In fact, the scientific method relies upon philosophy, which uses the mind.
 
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