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Relationship between religion and science

I’d say there was a significant element of chance. Like so many things, it would have only taken a couple of minor differences in events to lead to vastly different outcomes years later. Maybe a different culture could have led to an even better state of science today, say if certain areas of study hadn’t been resisted by churches or the input of women had been accepted and recognised earlier?

There is always chance involved, but it was a society where there was a far higher chance of it occurring than in almost all other historical societies.

Thousands of societies have existed, yet modern science developed out of one particular society. We had thousands of bites at the cherry, and while in theory a 'better' society could have existed, in reality it didn't and the likelihood of it appearing, based on the only evidence we have, was pretty low.

It was imperfect, but good enough. Most societies failed to reach even that status.

I think you’re belittling non-European societies. All of the major civilisations of the world will have had technological and what we’d now call scientific advancements of their times or they wouldn’t have become major civilisations. We can’t know how much knowledge was lost when those civilisations either died out or were crushed by later ones (including our own).

Not at all. I specifically acknowledged them in a previous post as Western Europe was a very late bloomer.


Why would there need to be different reasons for different people (or the same people with different beliefs) to develop their nations and societies? And while it’s certainly true that a vast amount of our educational infrastructure was started by religious people and church money, there are also examples of churches or the religious blocking progress or focusing resources on the spiritual or their personal enrichment rather than any wider social good.

You are jumbling together different things here. Practical technologies and 'sciences' have always been sought after.

Modern science grew out of the study of things that were decidedly impractical. The major reason these studies were funded and had any status was their connection to religion. Natural philosophy was generally considered to be pretty much useless, and most societies showed little concern for such endeavours.

The pre-modern mind was very different to that of the modern educated Westerner, and hindsight gives a very different perspective on things.

It’s almost as if it all boils down to the hot mess that is human nature, regardless of whether individuals are religious or not.

We are animals. Human nature has very little intrinsic desire to search for abstract principles of objective truth that offer no direct practical benefit to anyone, particularly when resources are scarce.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Explain Leonardo, Isaac Newton, George Washington Carver, among many others who were into science but also religious or practiced or at least had an interest in magic, mysticism and other spiritual practices

In times past the church was pretty unforgiving of descent to the extent of burning people at the stake. Those people who brought science forward under such threat were something special.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Before there is a "reality" against which all things are tested in the process you call "science," a reality has to be chosen and accepted through no tests since there is nothing against which one can test. Through such choice, there is dubbed the physical reality of materialism.

Reality : the state of things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional idea of them.

Reality is chosen on what can be physically measured or independently and reliably observed.

Measurement and independent and reliable observation are in themselves tests
 
In times past the church was pretty unforgiving of descent to the extent of burning people at the stake. Those people who brought science forward under such threat were something special.

The following are not mutually exclusive positions:

1. The Church persecuted a small number of people for 'heretical' science
2. Religion and the Church contributed significantly to the development of modern science

If you look at this list of medieval scientists, a significant number of them were monks or clergy.
 

HonestJoe

Well-Known Member
There is always chance involved, but it was a society where there was a far higher chance of it occurring than in almost all other historical societies.
I don’t see how we could know that, especially when we’re also talking about hypothetical societies where certain elements developed in different ways to actual historical events.

Thousands of societies have existed, yet modern science developed out of one particular society. We had thousands of bites at the cherry, and while in theory a 'better' society could have existed, in reality it didn't and the likelihood of it appearing, based on the only evidence we have, was pretty low.
I’m not denying that many of the pieces fell in to place in Western Europe to allow science to develop in the direction it did. I am questioning the idea that any one of those pieces very vitally necessary for that to have happened, including the existence or religion in general or the specific forms of religion in Europe during this period.

Modern science grew out of the study of things that were decidedly impractical. The major reason these studies were funded and had any status was their connection to religion. Natural philosophy was generally considered to be pretty much useless, and most societies showed little concern for such endeavours.
Natural philosophy pre-dates modern religion by a long way and was clearly of significance in a number of ancient societies. Much of their work will have been lost or destroyed when those societies died out and transitioned, just as much of our modern scientific progress would be lost if ours ever is.

The pre-modern mind was very different to that of the modern educated Westerner, and hindsight gives a very different perspective on things.
That’s an expression of gross arrogance! There is literally zero justification for assuming ancient peoples were fundamentally less capable that people today. Some of those ancient people remain among the greatest thinkers of all time and, frankly, some people alive today remain among the greatest idiots.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
That comment was satirical.

Numerous monks (Roger Bacon, Albertus Magnus, Williams of Occam, etc.), clergy (Archbishop of Canterbury Thomas Bradwardine, Reverend Thomas Bayes, Bishop George Berkley, etc.) theologians and devout believers (Robert Boyle, Descartes, Newton, etc.) were integral in the development of modern science.
So?

Take Newton: he had a lot of ideas that we recognize as unscientific today. He devoted more of his life to alchemy than to physics; do his contributions to physics suggest that we should give alchemy special regard? If not, why should his contributions to physics suggest we should give his religion special regard?

You pointed out earlier that many contributors to science saw no division between their science and their religion; well, many early astronomers saw no division between their astronomy and their astrology (or between their astrology and their religion). Looking back today, we can acknowledge their work that informed modern science while still discarding the less rational parts of their worldview.
 
I don’t see how we could know that, especially when we’re also talking about hypothetical societies where certain elements developed in different ways to actual historical events.

I was talking about the real societies that did exist.

I’m not denying that many of the pieces fell in to place in Western Europe to allow science to develop in the direction it did. I am questioning the idea that any one of those pieces very vitally necessary for that to have happened, including the existence or religion in general or the specific forms of religion in Europe during this period.

Plenty of them were necessary, from industrialisation, to the perception that the world was ordered and thus understandable (certainly not a universal belief), to the preservation of classical texts, to the evolving university system and the prestige and possibility of studying abstract, non-productive subjects.

I think it is fair to say that culture played a role in all of these being present.


That’s an expression of gross arrogance! There is literally zero justification for assuming ancient peoples were fundamentally less capable that people today. Some of those ancient people remain among the greatest thinkers of all time and, frankly, some people alive today remain among the greatest idiots.

How do you get from my statement, "The pre-modern mind was different", to "ancient people were stupid"? You added all of the negatives in yourself.

You don't actually believe pre-modern people viewed the world the same way as a modern educated Westerner do you though? That would indeed be gross arrogance as it is the same as saying "everybody thinks like me".

If you accept cultural diversity influences thought (which I assume you do), there is very little that is controversial about saying "the pre-modern mind was different". It is about as problematic as saying pre-modern society was different.
 
So?

Take Newton: he had a lot of ideas that we recognize as unscientific today. He devoted more of his life to alchemy than to physics; do his contributions to physics suggest that we should give alchemy special regard? If not, why should his contributions to physics suggest we should give his religion special regard?

You pointed out earlier that many contributors to science saw no division between their science and their religion; well, many early astronomers saw no division between their astronomy and their astrology (or between their astrology and their religion). Looking back today, we can acknowledge their work that informed modern science while still discarding the less rational parts of their worldview.

I'm discussing the role of religion in contributing to the historical development of modern science. It has nothing to do with today.

I give Newton's religion 'special regard' in connection with Newton's thinking because he did. I don't see why I should assume he was lying.

If I said the Great Fire of London had a role in ending the plague outbreak, it doesn't mean I'm advocating to burn down modern day London. It's just what happened in the past.
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
Well at least they didn't burn him at the stake for being right, they only put him under house arrest

temporarily in a comfy Vatican apartment, then in his own house yes..

I'm not a huge fan of the Catholic church, but I am of astronomy-

Galileo and the Pope got on a like a house on fire, the Pope liked his theory & gave him access to the church's press to publish his work, they promoted it, they could hardly be more generous, and accommodating of a wildly different theory than anyone had then- not just the church

The problems began when a new Pope took over, Galileo had gained a sense of entitlement to use the press for whatever and whenever he liked, the new Pope was understandably a little irked - but still allowed him to publish as long as he presented it as one of several competing theories, rather than speaking for the church and re-writing established science at will. He agreed but blatantly cheated on the agreement

It's easy with hindsight to give Galileo a free pass, but there was no way of knowing he was even right at the time

In perspective, there are places in the world today you can be beheaded for merely being openly Christian, so this was hardly an egregious case of religious persecution!
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
temporarily in a comfy Vatican apartment, then in his own house yes..

I'm not a huge fan of the Catholic church, but I am of astronomy-

Galileo and the Pope got on a like a house on fire, the Pope liked his theory & gave him access to the church's press to publish his work, they promoted it, they could hardly be more generous, and accommodating of a wildly different theory than anyone had then- not just the church

The problems began when a new Pope took over, Galileo had gained a sense of entitlement to use the press for whatever and whenever he liked, the new Pope was understandably a little irked - but still allowed him to publish as long as he presented it as one of several competing theories, rather than speaking for the church and re-writing established science at will. He agreed but blatantly cheated on the agreement

It's easy with hindsight to give Galileo a free pass, but there was no way of knowing he was even right at the time

In perspective, there are places in the world today you can be beheaded for merely being openly Christian, so this was hardly an egregious case of religious persecution!

No matter how comfy a prison it is still a prison.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Personally, as someone who considers himself a rationalist, I accept that science and religion actually do share a very strong relationship throughout history.
They did share a strong relationship. Presently, science has no need of religion, and at best, religion finds science more of a thorn in its theology than anything.

.
 

Hawkins

Well-Known Member
I was browsing idly around and found this article -

Relationship between religion and science - Wikipedia

Yet to read it all - it is rather long :)

Enjoy!

In nature religion and science are mutually exclusive from the very beginning and long before even the existence of what we call science. Religion is an advocate of what could possibly lying outside the space and time we are living in. Science on the other hand is observation and experiment based which requires humans to have 'physical access' to something observable/calculable to us directly or indirectly, which doesn't include existence outside our space and time simply because we can't go there to do observations and experiments to get to a scientific conclusion.
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
In nature religion and science are mutually exclusive from the very beginning and long before even the existence of what we call science. Religion is an advocate of what could possibly lying outside the space and time we are living in. Science on the other hand is observation and experiment based which requires humans to have 'physical access' to something observable/calculable to us directly or indirectly, which doesn't include existence outside our space and time simply because we can't go there to do observations and experiments to get to a scientific conclusion.
Or, perhaps, by Occam's Razor, there is no there, there.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I give Newton's religion 'special regard' in connection with Newton's thinking because he did. I don't see why I should assume he was lying.
You didn't answer my question. Do you also give alchemy special regard?

If I said the Great Fire of London had a role in ending the plague outbreak, it doesn't mean I'm advocating to burn down modern day London. It's just what happened in the past.
So you do agree that modern-day religion is often in conflict with science?
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
When discussing the role of religion in the rise of science, it is important to be clear of the time period, the religion, and the science being discussed.

For example, the Western church in late antiquity was instrumental in the decline of 'pagan' learning. The role of astronomers and mathematicians was judged as anti-Christian, mostly because of the association with astrology. But that also meant that the advances in math, mechanics, astronomy, etc were cast aside and denigrated for centuries.

On the other hand, the later church was instrumental in the translation movement (say, 1000-1200 AD) that re-introduced those same pagan ideas back into Christianity. But in so doing, it explicitly excluded certain ideas from consideration (like the eternity of the universe). Many of those who formulated crucial scientific ideas (such as inertia, uniformly accelerated motion, etc) were priests or monks. Of course, that is partly because only the priests and monks were literate at the level to read and discuss the relevant ideas. The idea that Ptolemy, for example, needed to be updated, was widely acknowledged.

We can also contrast medieval Christianity with medieval Islam. Up until about 1200-1300 AD, the Islamic world was the center of intellectual advancement. Al-Haytham produced the most important study of optics prior to Newton. Mathematics flourished. So why did the scientific revolution NOT happen in Baghdad? At least part of the reason (and there were many) was the idea that became current that any such investigation was 'alien' and un-Islamic. The investigations that did happen occurred outside of the official school system. Also, there was a concept that God could do *anything* at any time and so any patterns that might be found were unreliable. Hence, the very basis of science was denied.

In contrast, by the 14th century in Europe, there was a feeling both that 'ancient learning' needed to be reconciled with religious faith, but also that it was *possible* for mere humans to learn about how the universe works. This idea, while classical in spirit, became a religious default. Add to this the intellectual ferment of the schools to decide which ancient teachings were valid and which were invalid, and there was a clear *religious* incentive to explore scientific ideas.

Then the Reformation came along. The split in Christianity had a couple of consequences. One was that the Catholic church became much less tolerant of new ideas. Bruno and Galileo were victims, in part, of this hardening of dogmatic lines. But it also made it so that in *other* areas, under the Protestants, early scientific investigations could be done with some impunity. So, once Galileo's ideas made their way out of Italy (which happened quickly), they were tested and extended by those in Protestant Europe. Many of the scientists from this period were strongly influenced by their faiths (including Newton, for example).

This identification of Protestants and science lasted until about the time when investigations into geology showed that the Biblical stories were simply not consistent with the facts on the ground. At this point, and even more when Darwin's ideas became well-known, the religious backlash was severe in certain camps. To some extent, this applies today; the creationists ultimately look back to this time period for most of their ideas.

On the other hand, by this point the Catholic church had realized a good deal of its errors and had started doing more science again. So, the development of cosmology and the Big Bang scenario was done partly by a catholic priest (Lemaitre). The Vatican astronomers are still some of the best in the world.

So, it is easy to point to various times in history when religion and science *were* at odds, there are also many times when they walked hand-in-hand. The point is that religion *can* be a motivator to explore the science, but it can *also* be a significant hindrance when that science leads to ideas the religion finds intolerable.
 
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Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Plenty of them were necessary, from industrialisation, to the perception that the world was ordered and thus understandable (certainly not a universal belief), to the preservation of classical texts, to the evolving university system and the prestige and possibility of studying abstract, non-productive subjects..

I'd argue that industrialization came much later than the time periods were are discussing. At best, there were a few improvements (like waterwheels, plows, and escapement mechanisms), but real industrialization didn't happen until the late 18th century or so.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Was based on personal experience involving many people. But, I'll revise my views.

There is a close to 2% chance of any committed 'Rationalist' accepting this though despite it being pretty obvious with even a little open minded research.

:D

You can up that to 4%. Religion has had both a positive role and a negative role with respect to science, depending on when, which religion, and which science you want to discuss.

Have you read any of Edward Grant's stuff? it is quite good at discussing the rise of science in medieval Europe.
 
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