Reincarnation in Buddhism and Hinduism.

[Martin]

I am interested in how reincarnation is understood by those who adhere to the belief. Obviously there must be some average number of incarnations from the first incarnation to the last for spiritual pilgrims. I mean it must follow a process analogous to the education system, where students are not all in the same class in any one year, but are on different levels based on how many years they have attended school (and presumably have learnt the lessons successfully for that class), so likewise, every reincarnation must bring the pilgrim closer to their last, but at any given time, there are those beginning their first incarnation, and those on their last reincarnation.

So my question is, how many 'grades' or 'levels' are there from first incarnation to last reincarnation. I am not asking how many reincarnations altogether, just how many stages are there to freedom from returning to physical life? I do realize that, as in the school system, there are failures every grade year, and thus they must repeat the grade, so the number of reincarnations will be more than the levels representing the first incarnation to the last.

So what exactly is reincarnated in your understanding? Being clear about that might help to answer your question.

 

[Martin]

Reincarnation is typically taken to mean another incarnation of a soul, which is why it is helpful to distinguish the word from another.

So what exactly is reborn in Buddhism, if not a soul?

 

[Secret Chief]

So what exactly is reborn in Buddhism, if not a soul?

"what" implies an entity of some sort, I think. There is not a what, I would say - no entity, there is no inherent self-hood and all is constantly changing. Rebirth is a transference, the common comparison is the transfer of a flame from one candle to an unlt candle. The first flame is not the second flame, but there is a causality.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

So what exactly is reincarnated in your understanding? Being clear about that might help to answer your question.

Reincarnation is Universal/God spiritual soul that has evolved a modicum of self awareness as a result of previous incarnations, once again finding itself embodied,.

I'm not sure about your present understanding of reincarnation so please consider my response above as an opening for you to consider. I will then be happy to respond to your opinion on the subject.

 

[Martin]

"what" implies an entity of some sort, I think. There is not a what, I would say - no entity, there is no inherent self-hood and all is constantly changing. Rebirth is a transference, the common comparison is the transfer of a flame from one candle to an unlt candle. The first flame is not the second flame, but there is a causality.

I've never really understood the candle analogy. What does the flame represent?

 

[Martin]

Reincarnation is Universal/God spiritual soul that has evolved a modicum of self awareness as a result of previous incarnations, once again finding itself embodied,.

I'm not sure about your present understanding of reincarnation so please consider my response above as an opening for you to consider. I will then be happy to respond to your opinion on the subject.

I don't have a particular belief about reincarnation, and it all seems quite speculative to me. It's an intriguing possibility, but not something I pretend to understand. Presumably it involves the continuance of a "soul" through repeated rebirths? Though the soul would need to be changing over time, in order to allow for eventual liberation.
I'm not sure I understand your idea of a universal soul, could you elaborate?

 

[Lyndon]

I've never really understood the candle analogy. What does the flame represent?

The soul that doesn't exist, I would guess!

 

[Aupmanyav]

I've never really understood the candle analogy. What does the flame represent?

It is not a perfect analogy. One candle is not necessary to light another candle. A candle can be lighted with another match also.
There is no correlation between a person dying somewhere and a baby being born at some other place. The two events are not connected in any way.

So what exactly is reincarnated in your understanding? Being clear about that might help to answer your question.

Nothing is re-incarnated*. However, the karmas roll on. Karmas (what we do) do not die. Our karmas today will affect other people in future.
* Unless you take Chemical Recycling as re-incarnation.

 

[Secret Chief]

What does the flame represent?

Consciousness, would be my best guess, given it is an analogy. I think the main point of the analogy is the second flame is not the first flame, BUT the second flame comes into existence because of the first. The process is the thing, given the absence of self-hood. The life of the second candle is contingent upon the first. Cause / effect. Karma brings fruition.

(Different traditions consider rebirth in ..er...different ways. One might see it in terms of past and future lives, whereas another might see it in terms of moment-by-moment rebirth).

 

[firedragon]

These are but stories, myths created after Buddha had died.

It is absolutely remarkable that Buddha became enlightened in that early age, more than 2600 years ago. Enlightenment can be easier now with the increase in our knowledge. But enlightenment does not come to people with prejudices. It is a whole new line.

I think if you read on Buddhism you would note that his enlightenment did not come from knowledge that you speak of.

 

[Aupmanyav]

That is the wonder and beauty of Buddha's achievement, where as people even now talk about God, his prophets/sons/messengers/manifestations/mahdis and their messages.

 

[Martin]

Consciousness, would be my best guess, given it is an analogy. I think the main point of the analogy is the second flame is not the first flame, BUT the second flame comes into existence because of the first. The process is the thing, given the absence of self-hood. The life of the second candle is contingent upon the first. Cause / effect. Karma brings fruition.

(Different traditions consider rebirth in ..er...different ways. One might see it in terms of past and future lives, whereas another might see it in terms of moment-by-moment rebirth).

Yes, it seems to be about cause and effect, which is one way of talking about kamma. In the Buddhist suttas, beings are said to reappear in various realms, according to their actions. Though a being is just a temporary collection of aggregates, so it's not like there is actually anything being reborn.

 

[Martin]

The soul that doesn't exist, I would guess!

Trying to reconcile "rebirth" with the anatta doctrine is quite tricky.

 

[Aupmanyav]

You are born anew every moment. Some molecules have left your body, some new molecules have come in. This is a continuous process. You cannot enter the same river again. That is Buddhist re-birth/re-incarnation.

 

[Lyndon]

A lot of if not most Asian Buddhists believe in reincarnation, the whole rebirth story is mostly a Western phenomenon, popular with Atheists who don't believe in the supernatural.. I studied and ordained with Asian Buddhists, they all teach reincarnation, its only online that I hear Western Buddhists deny reincarnation and come up with the convoluted term rebirth, rebirth and reincarnation are english translations of the same pali word, they really are one and the same thing, the Pali canon teaches reincarnation, over and over and over again, going back and retranslating it as rebirth, and giving it a different meaning is an exercise in futility. A more literal translation might be "again living" or "again born"

 

[firedragon]

So what exactly is reborn in Buddhism, if not a soul?

Martin, in all honesty, this is what people call the "rebirth and the problem of no-self". The idea that in samsara, which is impermanent, and changing, there can be no permanent, unchanging, independent self or soul, unlike general ideas in Hinduism and even Jainism. I think if you truly try to understand this, there maybe several types of responses. One of those responses was the personal argument, I hope that translates well. Its Pudgala which is expressed as a personal entity which is not expressible. Vada meaning the argument or school of thought. This by itself is an apologetic attempt by an old Buddhist school which is in fact contradicting the no-self principle. Then there is this idea of an intermediate state between death and birth.

The Theravada school has a theory called pati sandhi. Pati meaning cause. Sandhi meaning the junction or connecting link if I may. There is a consciousness in the depth of life. Its not active. It neither self or soul. One one existence ends, this provides the effect on the first consciousness of a new birth. That is the causal connector or again, pati sandhi. The first moment of consciousness in a new birth is simply the direct conditioned effect of the final moment of consciousness of the immediately previous existence. I think it can be explained as a dependent origination which is a Buddhist philosophy of causality. "That" is dependent on "this".

 

[firedragon]

A lot of if not most Asian Buddhists believe in reincarnation, the whole rebirth story is mostly a Western phenomenon, popular with Atheists who don't believe in the supernatural.. I studied and ordained with Asian Buddhists, they all teach reincarnation, its only online that I hear Western Buddhists deny reincarnation and come up with the convoluted term rebirth, rebirth and reincarnation are english translations of the same pali word, they really are one and the same thing, the Pali canon teaches reincarnation, over and over and over again, going back and retranslating it as rebirth, and giving it a different meaning is an exercise in futility.

You were a monk? Wow.

Anyway, I agree that the Pali canon seems to teach reincarnation, although the reliance on a word in English is kind of futile because reincarnation or rebirth or what ever the English word we use is, we can still try to understand the Buddhist core of this issue.

Nevertheless, which particular passages are you referring to when you say it teaches reincarnation?

 

[Lyndon]

Martin, in all honesty, this is what people call the "rebirth and the problem of no-self". The idea that in samsara, which is impermanent, and changing, there can be no permanent, unchanging, independent self or soul, unlike general ideas in Hinduism and even Jainism. I think if you truly try to understand this, there maybe several types of responses. One of those responses was the personal argument, I hope that translates well. Its Pudgala which is expressed as a personal entity which is not expressible. Vada meaning the argument or school of thought. This by itself is an apologetic attempt by an old Buddhist school which is in fact contradicting the no-self principle. Then there is this idea of an intermediate state between death and birth.

The Theravada school has a theory called pati sandhi. Pati meaning cause. Sandhi meaning the junction or connecting link if I may. There is a consciousness in the depth of life. Its not active. It neither self or soul. One one existence ends, this provides the effect on the first consciousness of a new birth. That is the causal connector or again, pati sandhi. The first moment of consciousness in a new birth is simply the direct conditioned effect of the final moment of consciousness of the immediately previous existence. I think it can be explained as a dependent origination which is a Buddhist philosophy of causality. "That" is dependent on "this".

Which in effect is just replacing the term soul with consciousness, you could call consciousness the soul

 

[Lyndon]

You were a monk? Wow.

Anyway, I agree that the Pali canon seems to teach reincarnation, although the reliance on a word in English is kind of futile because reincarnation or rebirth or what ever the English word we use is, we can still try to understand the Buddhist core of this issue.

Nevertheless, which particular passages are you referring to when you say it teaches reincarnation?

I was only a monk for 3 weeks but I was a temple boy for much longer, off and on, lived at temples for about a year, I can't quote the pali canon, but if you read it you will see it is constantly referring to reincarnation or rebirth depending on the translator. Part of the Pali canon is the Buddha recounting stories about his past lives.

 

[firedragon]

Which in effect is just replacing the term soul with consciousness, you could call consciousness the soul

I think my explanation is not good enough. I shall try again.

Anyway, I am interested to read up the passages you said is teaching reincarnation in the Pali canon. Please be kind enough to give some references if you dont mind.