Reincarnation in Buddhism and Hinduism.

[Secret Chief]

the buddha didn't write anything down. we also know most holy men have an inner circle to which they give further insight. rebirth is an illusion simply because impermanence is real; which is eternal and self sustaining.

that goes against the idea of self-perpetuating but we know the universe, the absolute does that somehow

My only point was in regard to the term reincarnation. Nothing else.

 

[Fool]

Reincarnation is typically taken to mean another incarnation of a soul, which is why it is helpful to distinguish the word from another.

a soul is associated with a person, an earthly form. if a person doesn't exist, the soul doesn't either. the greek differentiate between spirit and soul.

most look at the process as a bottom up process but actually it's a top down then bottom up process. or reversal of the river jordan. when elijah was taken the river jordan flowed backward


as jesus said no man ascends up to heaven but the son of man that came down from heaven

 

[Aupmanyav]

From what I understand Hindus believe there is a soul. Unlike Buddhism, awareness of the soul and everything without differentiation to unite with the divine is totally different concept than what The Buddha taught.

This one too, does not believe in soul or reincarnation, other than chemical recycling.

 

[Fool]

My only point was in regard to the term reincarnation. Nothing else.

your point is basically mute due to cultural differences. the word reincarnation wasn't coined until the mid to late 18 th century and is a western concept. it is known that buddhist missionaries were in 1st century alexandria. reincarnation, or rebirth, if you prefer was part of the belief system of many different cultures.


buddha was 1st a hindu. i don't think he was trying to start a new religion but to return the seeker back to the overall understanding of what is real vs what is illusory. what is important vs what is just fleeting and creating unhealthy attachments

 

[Lyndon]

Yes and the term rebirth wasn't coined till much more recently

 

[Fool]

The Buddha doesn't believe there is an inherent soul. Our identity is constantly changing that to call it that-a fixed self-is not the buddhist thought. Instead, once one knows he doesn't have a fixed identity, they are liberated. It takes many rebirths to not attach oneself to one's self and environment. They liberate ourselves through our actions.

From what I understand Hindus believe there is a soul. Unlike Buddhism, awareness of the soul and everything without differentiation to unite with the divine is totally different concept than what The Buddha taught.

the idea is basically that hindus talk about the individual consciousness vs the collective consciousness from seemingly two observations. the buddha was basically saying that they are one and the same. so all those masks are just coverings of illusion for the only consciousness that pervades all forms, yet itself is formless

 

[firedragon]

I am interested in how reincarnation is understood by those who adhere to the belief. Obviously there must be some average number of incarnations from the first incarnation to the last for spiritual pilgrims. I mean it must follow a process analogous to the education system, where students are not all in the same class in any one year, but are on different levels based on how many years they have attended school (and presumably have learnt the lessons successfully for that class), so likewise, every reincarnation must bring the pilgrim closer to their last, but at any given time, there are those beginning their first incarnation, and those on their last reincarnation.

So my question is, how many 'grades' or 'levels' are there from first incarnation to last reincarnation. I am not asking how many reincarnations altogether, just how many stages are there to freedom from returning to physical life? I do realize that, as in the school system, there are failures every grade year, and thus they must repeat the grade, so the number of reincarnations will be more than the levels representing the first incarnation to the last.

I would say that in Buddhism most of this is not necessarily the most traditional teachings, but more modern or adopted teachings. Further from the Buddha.

 

[Aupmanyav]

My apologies, my expression "then you are no good to me" was not meant as derogatory, merely an expression of my impatient desire for some reasonable fulfilling answer to my question. Chill bro.

You are talking about reincarnations and stages before one gets enlightened. These who are very different things and there is no connection between them. Reincarnation or change in form does not entitled you for enlightenment. And enlightenment is just one step. Either you know or you don't know. It is not true that it will come after many reincarnations. One does not reincarnate as a whole. One atoms of your body may go to Arctic and other to Antartic after death and disintegration. Your atoms reincarnate as part of different forms.

As for enlightenment. It can come in five minutes or it can take 50 years. To Buddha it came suddenly, when he was sitting under the tree ruminating about his failure to reach his goal. It is a Eureka moment. It happened the same way to me and everything became clear some 35 years ago. Like any other exam it requires prior study. You must have a fair understanding of some 25 subjects and worldly experience. That takes time.

the idea is basically that hindus talk about the individual consciousness vs the collective consciousness from seemingly two observations.

Kindly do not generalize and misinform about Hinduism. Your statement is very nebulous.

 

[firedragon]

I am interested in how reincarnation is understood by those who adhere to the belief. Obviously there must be some average number of incarnations from the first incarnation to the last for spiritual pilgrims.

This question I believe is not answerable.

For example, the Buddha, before becoming the Buddha, as the Bodhisatva, had a Kalpalaksha. That means a 100,000 lives.

 

[Aupmanyav]

These are but stories, myths created after Buddha had died.

It is absolutely remarkable that Buddha became enlightened in that early age, more than 2600 years ago. Enlightenment can be easier now with the increase in our knowledge. But enlightenment does not come to people with prejudices. It is a whole new line.

 

[firedragon]

your point is basically mute due to cultural differences. the word reincarnation wasn't coined until the mid to late 18 th century and is a western concept. it is known that buddhist missionaries were in 1st century alexandria. reincarnation, or rebirth, if you prefer was part of the belief system of many different cultures.


buddha was 1st a hindu. i don't think he was trying to start a new religion but to return the seeker back to the overall understanding of what is real vs what is illusory. what is important vs what is just fleeting and creating unhealthy attachments

Leaving the English word reincarnation you say was invented in the 18th century, what do you think are Parinirvana and punarjeevana?

 

[Fool]

Leaving the English word reincarnation you say was invented in the 18th century, what do you think are Parinirvana and punarjeevana?

words that describe ideas, basically person, places, things, processes, actions?

 

[firedragon]

words that describe ideas, basically person, places, things, processes, actions?

The thing is I cant translate those words into English, because as you have said, at least one of them, which is the most important one for this topic was invented in the 18th century.

So what could we do now?

 

[Fool]

The thing is I cant translate those words into English, because as you have said, at least one of them, which is the most important one for this topic was invented in the 18th century.

So what could we do now?

evolve.


cultures can have unique instances in relationship to their environments. that is how a culture arises in relationship to its environment. But if we're talking mind, consciousness, spirit, and the ability to swap ideas, tthat isn't unique to a culture. that is intrinsic to a person.


so the understanding of reincarnation from a western viewpoint had a limited knowledge and experience to this idea. taht isn't the case today. cultural barriers can be overcome if both parties have a very good knowledge and experience of the other's culture and language

 

[firedragon]

evolve.


cultures can have unique instances in relationship to their environments. that is how a culture arises in relationship to its environment. But if we're talking mind, consciousness, spirit, and the ability to swap ideas, tthat isn't unique to a culture. that is intrinsic to a person.


so the understanding of reincarnation from a western viewpoint had a limited knowledge and experience to this idea. taht isn't the case today. cultural barriers can be overcome if both parties have a very good knowledge and experience of the other's culture and language

See, you said the word reincarnation was invented in the 18th century, so the word you should specifically use now is punarjeevana, or punarbhav, or punarbhavana.

 

[Fool]

See, you said the word reincarnation was invented in the 18th century, so the word you should specifically use now is punarjeevana, or punarbhav, or punarbhavana.

why not palingenesis? or metempsychosis? or maybe some other languages exact word? if you and I converse, i will try my best to remember one of those three words.

 

[sun rise]

Going back to the OP question, Meher Baba said the developing soul has millions of forms before the human form and is reborn/reincarnated 8,400,000 times before entering the spiritual path.

 

[firedragon]

why not palingenesis? or metempsychosis? or maybe some other languages exact word? if you and I converse, i will try my best to remember one of those three words.

I think its better to use the original wording rather than translating them because I dont know when these words were invented and why or how that would matter.

 

[firedragon]

Going back to the OP question, Meher Baba said the developing soul has millions of forms before the human form and is reborn/reincarnated 8,400,000 times before entering the spiritual path.

8.4 million times means with an average of 1 year for each life its 8.4 million years. At that time in comparison to today life on earth would have been Gorillas and of course other organisms. So those alive today must have been some form or the other at that time. The numbers don't add up. I dont know what kind of assumptions we have t make for 7 billion humans today.

 

[Secret Chief]

your point is basically mute due to cultural differences. the word reincarnation wasn't coined until the mid to late 18 th century and is a western concept. it is known that buddhist missionaries were in 1st century alexandria. reincarnation, or rebirth, if you prefer was part of the belief system of many different cultures.

The essential distinguishing point is the existence or non-existence of the soul. If one uses a word intending to incorporate the idea of a soul then that is not a Buddhist teaching. I typically see the word "reincarnation" used within Vajrayana, not in Theravada or Mahayana, though I can't say I've exhaustively researched it. IMO this is possibly because it is a Buddhism influenced by Bon. Hence things such as identifying the reincarnation of the next Dalai Lama.

buddha was 1st a hindu.

Of course. The culture one is born into is obviously out of one's hands. The Buddha was not satisfied with his spiritual upbringing and so left home in order to began his own investigation.