Reincarnation and Control

[Thief]

I say, it's not up to us.

I am not my own handiwork. I did not put 'me' in this body.

Someone else is in control.

 

[Erebus]

I say, it's not up to us.

I am not my own handiwork. I did not put 'me' in this body.

Someone else is in control.

Do you believe in reincarnation Thief? I had you down as somebody who believed in Heaven/Hell instead

Personally while I don't believe we have full control of what we reincarnate as, I do believe we get some say in it. I also believe that we can both lose control of our reincarnation and gain more control over it, though I doubt we'll ever completely lose/gain control.

 

[Engyo]

Someone else is in control.

I'm curious - what is it that suggests a "one" to you about the situation? By this I mean that you are suggesting a personified intelligence, rather than something like an impersonal process. Is there anything specific that suggests a personified intelligence to you?

 

[Thief]

I'm curious - what is it that suggests a "one" to you about the situation? By this I mean that you are suggesting a personified intelligence, rather than something like an impersonal process. Is there anything specific that suggests a personified intelligence to you?

So...working the question otherwise.....
If no one else is in control....then you are in that body by your will?
Did you choose the body you have?
If the choice was yours...are you content?
When you die...do you get to pick again?
Will you choose better?

If the control was ever yours....try affirming it....as you look in the mirror.

 

[Lauren MacDonald]

I agree with the first reply that shyanekh gave about never completely losing or gaining control. I think reincarnation is a very real thing and something we may all go throgh. i believe in heaven hell, and reincarnation and that they all go together and fit perfectly like a puzzle, i believe everything fits like that.

 

[Engyo]

So...working the question otherwise.....
If no one else is in control....then you are in that body by your will?
Did you choose the body you have?
If the choice was yours...are you content?
When you die...do you get to pick again?
Will you choose better?

If the control was ever yours....try affirming it....as you look in the mirror.

I just don't feel a need to see some personified entity making "choices". It's perfectly comfortable as a natural process as far as I am concerned.

When I die, "I" won't be around to pick anything for the next lifetime, as far as my current understanding runs. Nor does some other entity make a "choice" for "me".

These are only understandings and opinions, of course; Your Mileage May Vary.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Indeed, the idea that someone else is in control sure can be comforting.

 

[Thief]

I believe the body to be a teaching device.
You are here, in this life, to learn all that you can before you die.
Your five senses expose you to this reality.
Your linear existence makes you unique.

Reincarnation could serve only one purpose.
Destroy the previous person, and relocate the life force...soul...into another body.

But that leans to approval...some standard...of a Creator.

 

[Engyo]

I believe the body to be a teaching device.
You are here, in this life, to learn all that you can before you die.
Your five senses expose you to this reality.
Your linear existence makes you unique.

Reincarnation could serve only one purpose.
Destroy the previous person, and relocate the life force...soul...into another body.

But that leans to approval...some standard...of a Creator.

Two points - I personally support rebirth, rather than reincarnation, although that doesn't really matter for this discussion.

Secondly, I still don't see what in the concept leads you to believe that some personified entity is implied or required. Can you expand on what exactly it is within the situation that leads you to that specific conclusion?

 

[Onkara]

So...working the question otherwise.....
If no one else is in control....then you are in that body by your will?
Did you choose the body you have?
If the choice was yours...are you content?
When you die...do you get to pick again?
Will you choose better?

If the control was ever yours....try affirming it....as you look in the mirror.

It was desire or rather my craving as a person with desires which lead to this birth, rather than my will. My will should follow my intuition, but it would much rather chase women, food and avoid anything which distracts from pleasure.

This life is different, as it is through this life I get to "play again". I can choose in a sense if to live again, as I know right from wrong. Wrong will distract me and keep me reincarnating. That is really why it is wrong, after all it wasn't wrong for my previous lives, but there was as much discomfort as pleasure and I have learnt that lesson and seen it more clearly in this life.

I didn't choose this body, but this body allows me to fulfill the desires I still desired on leaving the last body. How do I know that? Because I have changed during this life and what I desired before is not what I desire now.

 

[Thief]

It was desire or rather my craving as a person with desires which lead to this birth, rather than my will. My will should follow my intuition, but it would much rather chase women, food and avoid anything which distracts from pleasure.

This life is different, as it is through this life I get to "play again". I can choose in a sense if to live again, as I know right from wrong. Wrong will distract me and keep me reincarnating. That is really why it is wrong, after all it wasn't wrong for my previous lives, but there was as much discomfort as pleasure and I have learnt that lesson and seen it more clearly in this life.

I didn't choose this body, but this body allows me to fulfill the desires I still desired on leaving the last body. How do I know that? Because I have changed during this life and what I desired before is not what I desire now.

My previous questions indicated a sense of awareness between incarnations.
And with that awareness, the ability to make decisions.

Would that be you?

And if wrong doing inhibits the joining of spirit and body...
Then wrong doing should be a thing of the past by now.

 

[Onkara]

My previous questions indicated a sense of awareness between incarnations.
And with that awareness, the ability to make decisions.

Would that be you?

And if wrong doing inhibits the joining of spirit and body...
Then wrong doing should be a thing of the past by now.

Hi
Let me try more briefly.
What causes reincarnation is desire, the thought at the time of death can determine our next birth, according to Srimad Bhagavatam, a Sanatana Dharma Puranic Scripture and the Bhagavad Gita.

Awareness is consciousness. We are aware through being a body-mind (Jiva).

As to awareness in between incarnations, the scriptures indicate a heaven or a lokha (world) in which one may temporarily reside until the next body is taken. I am not too clear on this and do to subscribe to this too much. It doesn't imply a choice in my opinion. The choice comes through living this life and how we deal with desire etc during this life.

"wrong" depends then on acting under impulsions of desire, as that will cause us to reincarnate. Logically it is not wrong if you don't mind reincarnation. It is this life which is the chance to change our destiny - we can break free from the cycle of reincarnation - samsara. How to become free is what Dharmic paths and religions intend to teach us (the jiva).

Hope that is a better reply.

 

[Thief]

Hi
Let me try more briefly.
What causes reincarnation is desire, the thought at the time of death can determine our next birth, according to Srimad Bhagavatam, a Sanatana Dharma Puranic Scripture and the Bhagavad Gita.

Awareness is consciousness. We are aware through being a body-mind (Jiva).

As to awareness in between incarnations, the scriptures indicate a heaven or a lokha (world) in which one may temporarily reside until the next body is taken. I am not too clear on this and do to subscribe to this too much. It doesn't imply a choice in my opinion. The choice comes through living this life and how we deal with desire etc during this life.

"wrong" depends then on acting under impulsions of desire, as that will cause us to reincarnate. Logically it is not wrong if you don't mind reincarnation. It is this life which is the chance to change our destiny - we can break free from the cycle of reincarnation - samsara. How to become free is what Dharmic paths and religions intend to teach us (the jiva).

Hope that is a better reply.

We'll have to keep trying.
It seems, by your last post....
Doing wrong will cause us to reincarnate.
But didn't you say that doing wrong could prevent that happening?

Picture this.
Someone having an evil tendency, enjoys what he does.
He performs the misdeed, because he wants to.
Having done so...he is caught, jailed, and dies in prison.....
only to return to this life and carry on as he did before.

If reincarnation were controlled... and wrong doing stopped the process...
then harmful deeds would have fallen to the wayside long ago.

If reincarnation is opportunity to be a better person, and you don't want to be...
then the misery of this world will increase, until this world falls in on itself.

But either way...won't the angels eventually draw sword...as the Lord declares...
'Enough is enough...let there be peace.'

 

[Onkara]

Hi Thief
Yes, when we no longer submit to desire (or anger and other qualities) we can stop reincarnation. To do this we must submit or sacrifice our ego, which is ultimately what makes us think we need something and that we will benefit from our desire. With that sacrifice of ego comes realisation and peace.

In your example, the evil person will be reincarnated, however he will not be reincarnated in a better position. His next life will be harder, he is in fact `punished´ by his rebirth, but his chance is still there (in this life).

The evil person acts on his ego, on his desires, angers, fears etc. That is why he is wrong.

 

[Thief]

Hi Thief
Yes, when we no longer submit to desire (or anger and other qualities) we can stop reincarnation. To do this we must submit or sacrifice our ego, which is ultimately what makes us think we need something and that we will benefit from our desire. With that sacrifice of ego comes realisation and peace.

In your example, the evil person will be reincarnated, however he will not be reincarnated in a better position. His next life will be harder, he is in fact `punished´ by his rebirth, but his chance is still there (in this life).

The evil person acts on his ego, on his desires, angers, fears etc. That is why he is wrong.

So his choice of return IS controlled.
And by being here, it can be argued...we are all sinners.

 

[Onkara]

So his choice of return IS controlled.
And by being here, it can be argued...we are all sinners.

Yes, although one is not called a "sinner" because desire is not wrong unless you wish to step out samsara/renicarnation. Desire is only wrong if it causes you misery. If you are happy with the ups and downs that desire and life brings and accept that you will be born again based on your action in this life then so be it.

"God" created desire and vice through His prakriti (maya). God is omnipotent and omniscient. During this life we have fresh opportunity; this human life is auspicious, advise the scriptures We however have nothing to fear as such, as we approach "God" we find shelter, love and bliss with Him/Her/It.

I am writing from a Sanatana Dharma perspective. Not Buddhist.

 

[Engyo]

This illustrates one of the big differences for me between Dharmic thought and Abrahamic thought.

In Abrahamic thought, man is born sinful and this sin is cause for punishment; the sin must be forgiven by an outside force or entity for salvation.

In Dharmic thought, man is born impure and this impurity is cause for self-improvement; completing this self-improvement is cause for salvation, without (at least in the case of Buddhism) the intervention of an outside force or entity.

 

[Onkara]

Good points, Engyo.

It is interesting, as many Abrahamic concepts can be found in Sananta Dharma scriptures and puranic works, in my opinion. The emphasis or message is different, but all religions lead to an answer/explanation for life.

In Vedanta (Philosophy of Sanatna Dharma) man is in fact divine and the "goal" of life is to come to understand how you are divine; this is called enlightenment or Self-realisation. So man may act sinfully, but man is not separate from the divine, as creator and creation are One.

 

[Thief]

Yes, although one is not called a "sinner" because desire is not wrong unless you wish to step out samsara/renicarnation. Desire is only wrong if it causes you misery. If you are happy with the ups and downs that desire and life brings and accept that you will be born again based on your action in this life then so be it.

"God" created desire and vice through His prakriti (maya). God is omnipotent and omniscient. During this life we have fresh opportunity; this human life is auspicious, advise the scriptures We however have nothing to fear as such, as we approach "God" we find shelter, love and bliss with Him/Her/It.

I am writing from a Sanatana Dharma perspective. Not Buddhist.

I would have said, desire is only wrong when it harms another.
I suppose you could do evil unto yourself.
Does this earn you a fresh start?
Evil unto someone else earns you a fresh start?
Evil unto many..as a dictator would do...earns a fresh start for every one?

What I'm pointing out is the question....
When does it end?

When does God decide?...'Enough!....let there be peace!'
Then the angels draw sword.

 

[Onkara]

I would have said, desire is only wrong when it harms another.
I suppose you could do evil unto yourself.
Does this earn you a fresh start?
Evil unto someone else earns you a fresh start?
Evil unto many..as a dictator would do...earns a fresh start for every one?

What I'm pointing out is the question....
When does it end?

When does God decide?...'Enough!....let there be peace!'
Then the angels draw sword.

Hi

The conscious evil doers next birth isn't guranteed to be good. It will be based on our parting thoughts and actions, so we could be born into an animal or a person with suffering, you and I would still need to live out that life. Suicide would just put us back a notch and it all starts again. It isn't that we can get to play again, as we don't necessarily remember our past life either. So we don't think "that was good, I will have another go".

God is beyond the cycle. God is beyond good and evil. Good and evil are relative to our desires and fears. We project the idea that our suffering is some how offensive or unhepful for God. Why, because we think we are important to God... that is ego.

We may desire to live a long life, we can control what we eat and when we cross the road to avoid cars, but we still cannot gurantee our life span. It is through relinquishing our desires for "me and mine" that we find acceptance- It is through complete acceptance that we come to God. Those who come to God are free.

The whole thing will end when God wishes it. That too is out of our control and we need to accept it. Acceptance is a lot harder than charity.