Rehash god/proof debate

[Brian2]

Isn't that literally what scrutinizing ideas and evidence is all about?

You should always try to falsify or debunk claims and the evidence proposed for it.
It's when you are unable to do so, that there is something there....


You know, when a scientist designs an experiment to test a certain idea... did you know that the experiment isn't actually designed to try and prove the idea correct? It's the exact opposite. The scientist conducting the experiment is going to try to prove it wrong instead.

And when that fails, then it's a success for the idea that is being tested.
This is why scientific ideas must make testable predictions "if a and b, then according this theory C should occur".

So you design an experiment that has A and B and you try to make anything but C occur.
But if C occurs every time..........................


You see?
On the other hand, suppose you would do your best to design your experiment to make C occur.
You see the problem?

You should always scrutinize ideas and evidence and do your best to try and poke holes in it.
It's when you fail to do so, that you can accept said ideas and evidence.


So yes, whenever I ask you to bring evidence for your claims, you may fully expect me to try and tear that evidence a new one.

I think I was talking about philosophical proofs.
Anyway I guess what you are saying is that you have managed to debunk all presented proofs (philosophical) and evidence for God................in your own mind at least.
Which one is the strongest for a God?

 

[Brian2]

Or it shows the tendency of the biological brain to produce such experiences in times of great stress and which people through popular culture "interpret" in religious ways.


Very similarly to how the human brain is rather prone to cognition errors leading directly to superstitious beliefs. As is the case in most animals, actually.

I find it amazing how people can make up justifications rather than believe the evidence.

 

[Brian2]

Well, what about subconscious mechanisms? You are making the unwarranted assumption that we need to be conscious to remember things. For instance, once I dreamed of someone ringing at the door, while asleep, to find out, the morning after, that someone indeed rang at my door. My brain just constructed a model of the outside world while I was unconscious.

Isn't maybe something to keep into account before invoking the spiritual world?

Ciao

- viole

It's a good thing to examine all possible explanations but the NDEs I am talking about are things like someone knowing what happened in another room.

 

[Brian2]

Can you provide a proper source for one of these events?

I have heard Dr Gary Habermas speak on the subject and know he has written on it. You may find accounts and sources there.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I have heard Dr Gary Habermas speak on the subject and know he has written on it. You may find accounts and sources there.

Well, he is not a M.D. He is historian.

 

[Brian2]

If you claim that God interacts in any way with the real world, then surely these interactions can be measured, yes?

Results can be seen but the belief that anything is from God is in believing the reports of people about their experiences.
A person's brain waves can be studied when praying and for a science it will be about which part of the brain produces a spiritual experience.
A miracle can be seen or heard about and some believe what happened was from God and others would say they cannot explain it and it will never be a God thing.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Results can be seen but the belief that anything is from God is in believing the reports of people about their experiences.
A person's brain waves can be studied when praying and for a science it will be about which part of the brain produces a spiritual experience.
A miracle can be seen or heard about and some believe what happened was from God and others would say they cannot explain it and it will never be a God thing.

I experience that nothing is from God. Why don't you believe me??????????????????????????????

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I think I was talking about philosophical proofs.

So? Are "philosophical proofs" immune to scrutiny?

Anyway I guess what you are saying is that you have managed to debunk all presented proofs (philosophical) and evidence for God................in your own mind at least.

I have never encountered one that wasn't infested with logical fallacies.

Having said that, even if you can come up with one that is dificult to poke holes in, or even impossible, it wouldn't convince me. Why? Because they are just words.

They are attempts at "defining" things into existence. Reality doesn't work that way.
If you wish to convince me that aliens are kidnapping people: show me an alien.
If you wish to convince me that unicorns are real: show me a unicorn.
If you wish to convince me that the supernatural is real: show me something supernatural.

Mere words are not going to be sufficient.

Which one is the strongest for a God?

None I have heard so far.
Arguments infested with logical fallacies, aren't strong. They aren't even weak.
They are in the category of "not even wrong".

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I find it amazing how people can make up justifications rather than believe the evidence.

What you call "evidence"' is no more or less then people making claims (about their experiences).

If you wish to convince me that a "soul" exists, then show me a soul.
Finding me a bunch of people who all agree / claim that a soul exists, is only evidence that there are people who believe it.

Do the many thousands of claimed alien abductees (all with similar stories) convince you that alien abduction is real?

How about bigfoot spotters?

No?

Then why would your claim be any different?

Why must I only rely on anecdotes and claims? You are asking me to "just believe them". Well.. sorry, but no.

Want to convince me that "souls" exist? Show me a soul. I have no use for a bunch of people who claim it to be so.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Results can be seen but the belief that anything is from God is in believing the reports of people about their experiences.

Yep. In the exact same way, the belief that aliens are kidnapping people and performing weird sex experiments on them, is in believing the reports of people about their experiences.

If it's not enough to believe in alien abduction, why should it be enough to believe in a god?

In fact, aliens are far more plausible then god(s).
For the simple fact that aliens are natural biological creatures from another planet. And we KNOW for a FACT that natural biological creatures exist AND that other planets exist. It's not that much of a stretch to assume that since life exists on this planet, it can also exist on other planets.

But gods? NOTHING even remotely similar to such a thing has EVER been shown to exist.
There are zero precedents.

And in fact, the "supernatural", pretty much by definition, is impossible. As it involves things that according to the laws of nature can not happen / occur / exist. That's what the supernatural IS: magic.

So, right out the gates, aliens are more believable then gods.
Yet, the thousands of "reports" of aliens aren't enough to convince us.
What on earth makes you think that "reports" of god would?

A person's brain waves can be studied when praying and for a science it will be about which part of the brain produces a spiritual experience.

We already pretty much know about that as it has been studied a lot already.
Such studies, for example, have pointed out that when you take apple fanboys and show them apple logo's and products, they pretty much have a religious experience much like when you show a christian a crucifix.

A miracle can be seen or heard about and some believe what happened was from God and others would say they cannot explain it and it will never be a God thing.

A miracle is always something unexplainable, since if it can be explained it is ruled out as a "miracle". Because no explained thing ever concluded "god did it".

So, really, every miracle that hasn't been debunked as a miracle, is thus really nothing more or less then an argument from ignorance.

Go ahead: show me when a "miracle" has ever been explained properly and confirmed to being a miracle?

 

[Tiberius]

I have heard Dr Gary Habermas speak on the subject and know he has written on it. You may find accounts and sources there.

Find them where? You have linked to nothing.

 

[Tiberius]

Results can be seen but the belief that anything is from God is in believing the reports of people about their experiences.
A person's brain waves can be studied when praying and for a science it will be about which part of the brain produces a spiritual experience.
A miracle can be seen or heard about and some believe what happened was from God and others would say they cannot explain it and it will never be a God thing.

If there is a specific part of the brain that produces spiritual experiences, then that suggests that what is perceived to be a spiritual experience is merely created in the brain.

 

[Valjean]

Valjean said: If it can't be measured and studied, ie: perceived, why should anyone believe in it?

Because some things are just there and were believed in for millennia without measurements and still are for many things and by people who do not read the scientific journals.
I guess scientific thinking is some sort of justification for being a materialist but it should not be.
I believe in God because He does not need science to justify His existence.

Why do the number of believers, or duration of a belief, have any effect on its veracity? Lots of people believed in the Egyptian, Hindu and Greek Gods for long periods of time, too. Does that put them on an equal truth footing with Christianity?

It's not a matter of science. It's a question of reason and logic. If by "justify" you mean to make it a reasonable conclusion, I agree, science isn't a sine qua non, but good, valid evidence is. I'd still say belief in something unevidenced is unreasonable.

 

[Muffled]

Something CT made me think....

What proof do nonbelievers (to whom this question is appropriate) want for god?

Why wouldn't proof be how it chances a person's life and not something explained objectively?

If something changed your life profoundly, would you use logic to verify your experiences, or?

I believe I am playing the devil's advocate. What is the proof that a changed life is due to God? I believe the main argument is that the person logically assessed his situation and changed his life accordingly and then attributed the change to God.

 

[Muffled]

Plenty of people's lives have been profoundly changed by fictitious stories, conspiracy theories, and blatant lies.

Does that mean that unicorns are real, and the Elders of Zion really are plotting world domination?

I believe when it comes to God we are not talking about a fictitious story.

John 6:68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life,

 

[Muffled]

If a belief changes me for the better, I'd say it has its merits. However, on the other hand, a lot of religious ideas, certainly not all, kind of don't change one for the better, I feel.

I believe not all religious ideas are true but Jesus says "I am the truth."

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

I believe not all religious ideas are true but Jesus says "I am the truth."

What is truth?

 

[Valjean]

I believe when it comes to God we are not talking about a fictitious story.

John 6:68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life,

Why do you believe this is not fiction?

I believe not all religious ideas are true but Jesus says "I am the truth."

Did he? Evidence, please.
Don't all religious leaders and politicians claim truth?

 

[Kooky]

I believe when it comes to God we are not talking about a fictitious story.

John 6:68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life,

That's fair, but I disagree.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It's a good thing to examine all possible explanations but the NDEs I am talking about are things like someone knowing what happened in another room.

I strongly doubt that any such event ever actually happened.

Edit: and I'm not sure how they'd be relevant to God if they were real. "Humans sometimes have psychic abilities" <> "God exists."