Regarding Zechut (i.e. Merit)

[Terry Sampson]

I want to broaden my understanding of the Judaic concept of "Merit" (of both the physical and spiritual fathers). I can explore the concept on-line but am wondering: is there a book in English that specifically addresses zechut? [I have Soloman Schechter's Some Aspects of Rabbinic Theology.]

 

[Tumah]

I don't really know what there is to explore here. Off hand, I can only think of three ways the word is used: (1) when the law weighs in your favor, (2) when you have a right or entitlement to something, (3) the benefit of a virtuous deed.

I'm not sure what you mean by "spiritual father", but since you mention fathers, you're probably referring to the phrase "merit of fathers". That refers to the benefit a person gains from having virtuous parentage. Contextually, I believe it usually refers to some added degree of protection he may have from calamity.

I'm not so familiar with what's available in English or of theological positions of other denominations than my own.

 

[Terry Sampson]

I don't really know what there is to explore here. Off hand, I can only think of three ways the word is used: (1) when the law weighs in your favor, (2) when you have a right or entitlement to something, (3) the benefit of a virtuous deed.

I'm not sure what you mean by "spiritual father", but since you mention fathers, you're probably referring to the phrase "merit of fathers". That refers to the benefit a person gains from having virtuous parentage. Contextually, I believe it usually refers to some added degree of protection he may have from calamity.

I'm not so familiar with what's available in English or of theological positions of other denominations than my own.

Many thanks for your response, particularly your first paragraph. It gives me a "foundation" to build on.

As for my "(of both the physical and spiritual fathers)", I was indeed referring, in part, to the phrase "merit of fathers" [i.e. Zechut Avot] which, I take to mean "the merit of biological ancestors". But I threw in "spiritual fathers", without intention to offend anyone, because IMO & understanding, I am, at least potentially, a spiritual heir and beneficiary of the Holy One's promises to Abraham, i.e. the blessing of Gentiles.

As for your familiarity with theological positions of other denominations, I'm not interested in any other than an orthodox Judaic position.

Thanks again.

 

[Tumah]

Many thanks for your response, particularly your first paragraph. It gives me a "foundation" to build on.

As for my "(of both the physical and spiritual fathers)", I was indeed referring, in part, to the phrase "merit of fathers" [i.e. Zechut Avot] which, I take to mean "the merit of biological ancestors".

I don't think Judaism comes with a concept of "spiritual father". The concept of "merit of fathers" actually refers specifically to biological parentage - to the extent that a particular Talmudic Sage wasn't chosen for a particular position because he lacked this merit having been a descendant of a convert.

But I threw in "spiritual fathers", without intention to offend anyone, because IMO & understanding, I am, at least potentially, a spiritual heir and beneficiary of the Holy One's promises to Abraham, i.e. the blessing of Gentiles.

I'm guessing you're Christian. If you were planning some syncretic concept, you could have just made one up. No need to come find our Traditions of Men.

As for your familiarity with theological positions of other denominations, I'm not interested in any other than an orthodox Judaic position.

I would not have guessed that considering the cited author.

 

[Rival]

I'm guessing you're Christian. If you were planning some syncretic concept, you could have just made one up. No need to come find our Traditions of Men.

I don't think he is, Tum. It's easy for us to jump on people because of what we're used to but come on, let's give some a chance

 

[Terry Sampson]

I don't think Judaism comes with a concept of "spiritual father". The concept of "merit of fathers" actually refers specifically to biological parentage - to the extent that a particular Talmudic Sage wasn't chosen for a particular position because he lacked this merit having been a descendant of a convert.

Ahhh, I see the strangeness of my mentioning "spiritual fathers". I allowed this statement that I read to lead me astray:

• Some use the term zechus avos to refer to the merits of our physical ancestors, some to our spiritual ancestors and some use it to refer specifically to the Patriarchs Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The term is usually (but not exclusively) developed in one of two ways: in the concept that the good deeds of those who have gone before us -in our blood-line or in our our religious faith- are our exemplars; and in the notion that our individual imperfections and inadequacies can be made up for (to some extent) if we invoke the good deeds of the tzaddikim who went before us. Jewish Contemplatives: Zechus Avos- The Merit of the Patriarchs (Feb 2011)

I'm guessing you're Christian. If you were planning some syncretic concept, you could have just made one up. No need to come find our Traditions of Men.

Good guess, but I came here with a question, and it's been answered.

I would not have guessed that considering the cited author.

Shame on me. I apologize for failing to remember that Schechter was a Conservative Jew and you're not.

 

[Tumah]

I don't think he is, Tum. It's easy for us to jump on people because of what we're used to but come on, let's give some a chance

Where does the "Blessing of the Gentiles" come from if not Christianity?

 

[Tumah]

Ahhh, I see the strangeness of my mentioning "spiritual fathers". I allowed this statement that I read to lead me astray:

• Some use the term zechus avos to refer to the merits of our physical ancestors, some to our spiritual ancestors and some use it to refer specifically to the Patriarchs Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The term is usually (but not exclusively) developed in one of two ways: in the concept that the good deeds of those who have gone before us -in our blood-line or in our our religious faith- are our exemplars; and in the notion that our individual imperfections and inadequacies can be made up for (to some extent) if we invoke the good deeds of the tzaddikim who went before us. Jewish Contemplatives: Zechus Avos- The Merit of the Patriarchs (Feb 2011)

I understand no that the mistake wasn't your own. The ball is in that author's court to provide examples of where "spiritual" ancestors are recalled as providing "merit of the fathers". You'll notice that all his examples refer to the biological ancestors of the nation. The Talmud as well uses it as a reason a Sage who descended from a convert shouldn't be given a particular position where there was the possibility of retribution and the added merit would be advantageous. If it can refer to non-biological ancestors, that shouldn't have been a concern.

Shame on me. I apologize for failing to remember that Schechter was a Conservative Jew and you're not.

That wasn't actually the point that I was making. You had mentioned that you were looking for the Orthodox view, but earlier you had mentioned you had a Conservative text available, so it didn't appear as though you were looking for specifically the Orthodox view.

 

[Rival]

Where does the "Blessing of the Gentiles" come from if not Christianity?

I don't know and I assumed he was referring to the passage in which HaShem says to Abraham,

"And I will bless those who bless you and the one who curses you I wil curse, and all the families of the earth shall be blessed in you."

It sounds like Christian inherited phrasing I agree but I assumed that wasn't necessarily the intention. I wasn't under any prior impression of his being a Christian so I didn't make any links.

 

[Tumah]

I don't know and I assumed he was referring to the passage in which HaShem says to Abraham,

"And I will bless those who bless you and the one who curses you I wil curse, and all the families of the earth shall be blessed in you."

It sounds like Christian inherited phrasing I agree but I assumed that wasn't necessarily the intention. I wasn't under any prior impression of his being a Christian so I didn't make any links.

The idea that G-d's blessing to Abraham somehow makes him the spiritual father of all Gentiles I think is a Christian one.

 

[Terry Sampson]

That wasn't actually the point that I was making. You had mentioned that you were looking for the Orthodox view, but earlier you had mentioned you had a Conservative text available, so it didn't appear as though you were looking for specifically the Orthodox view.

It's too late to take back my choice of words, much less my initial OP, which I would if I could. However, for the record, in my message (Post #3), I actually and intentionally typed:

I'm not interested in any other than an orthodox Judaic position.

I understand that you could/should not have been expected to have recognized my use of a small "o" in the word "orthodox" for what it was there. I was hobbled by the RF taxonomy. I posted my inquiry in the Judaism DIR because I didn't want all of the creatures in RF to feel free to respond to it. I did not post in the Orthodox Judaism DIR because I didn't want to preclude a Conservative DIR or Hasidic DIR response. But I could not imagine that I would have been interested in a Humanistic DIR response; although I would have been content to accept a Reconstructionist DIR or a Reform DIR response. Consequently--and unfortunately for me--I chose to narrow my potential respondents to those who are "orthodox Jews". Somewhat as an analogy, if someone tells me that they have a question for an Orthodox Christian, I'd assume that they wouldn't have a question for me. But if someone tells me that they have a question for an orthodox Christian, I'd feel at liberty to offer my best answer or directions to someone more capable.

 

[Tumah]

It's too late to take back my choice of words, much less my initial OP, which I would if I could. However, for the record, in my message (Post #3), I actually and intentionally typed:



I understand that you could/should not have been expected to have recognized my use of a small "o" in the word "orthodox" for what it was there. I was hobbled by the RF taxonomy. I posted my inquiry in the Judaism DIR because I didn't want all of the creatures in RF to feel free to respond to it. I did not post in the Orthodox Judaism DIR because I didn't want to preclude a Conservative DIR or Hasidic DIR response. But I could not imagine that I would have been interested in a Humanistic DIR response; although I would have been content to accept a Reconstructionist DIR or a Reform DIR response. Consequently--and unfortunately for me--I chose to narrow my potential respondents to those who are "orthodox Jews". Somewhat as an analogy, if someone tells me that they have a question for an Orthodox Christian, I'd assume that they wouldn't have a question for me. But if someone tells me that they have a question for an orthodox Christian, I'd feel at liberty to offer my best answer or directions to someone more capable.

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You're right, I didn't recognize your usage. I think "traditional" is more commonly word used with regards Judaism, perhaps because of the Orthodox denomination, although from what you are saying, that is not the case with Christianity.

 

[Terry Sampson]

You're right, I didn't recognize your usage. I think "traditional" is more commonly word used with regards Judaism, perhaps because of the Orthodox denomination, although from what you are saying, that is not the case with Christianity.

"Traditional" works for me if it works for others in the Judaism DIR. And, once upon a time, I might have (in my youth, some 50 or so years ago) thought "traditional" would have had some useful meaning when talking about Christianity. Now??? All bets are off. So much so, that--contemplating what I have encountered in RF--I've pretty much come to the conclusion (as of yesterday) that "Christian" is a useless label, at best, and an insult at worst. Here in RF, it means whatever the user wants it to mean and, more often than not, it's a pejorative label allowed in conversation in lieu of foul language that could otherwise earn a Staff reprimand.

One personal consequence is that I finally decided yesterday, is that I'm going to have to search for another label for myself, because it has become the religious equivalent of "the n-word". I'll let someone else tell you what the n-word is and explain my analogical use of "the c-word".

 

[Terry Sampson]

P.S. An "Orthodox Christian" refers--or used to refer--to an adherent of Eastern Orthodox Christianity. An "orthodox Christian" once referred to someone who believes that:

• Jesus of Nazareth was an actual human being, who was crucified by Roman soldiers around 33 C.E., entombed, resurrected, and who ascended to heaven.

Thus, all Eastern Orthodox Christians would be, to use my word, orthodox Christians. But all orthodox Christians would include Christians who are not Eastern Orthodox Christians.