Refuting the Trinity Doctrine!

[Shermana]

Also with Iraneus.

How the early Church fathers viewed Jesus

Irenaeus (died ca. 200 CE) was the one who introduced the four gospels in the canon of the New Testament. He was a central figure in early Gentile Christianity. He believed that the only true God is the Father. He wrote, “... that we may learn through Him {Jesus} that the Father is above all things {i.e. including Jesus}. For ‘the Father,’ says he {says Jesus}, ‘is greater than I.’ The Father, therefore has been declared by our Lord to excel {above Jesus} with respect to knowledge ...” He wrote that there is “one God” and “one Christ”: “... that there is one God, Creator of heaven and earth, announced by the law and the prophets; and one Christ {Jesus} the son of God. If any one do not agree to these truths, he despises the companions {disciples} of the Lord {Jesus}.” Irenaeus said that this is what the Jewish Christians, “the companions of the Lord,” believed: “one God” and “one Christ {Jesus}.” He also wrote, “... God of Abraham ... who are the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, {you are} the only true God ... grant, by our Lord Jesus Christ, {and} the governing power of the Holy Spirit, give to every reader of this book to know You, that You are God alone ...” Irenaeus made it clear that Jesus was not God. Irenaeus also wrote, “... that this Being alone is truly God and Father, who both formed this world, fashioned man ...” Irenaeus believed that God created the world through Jesus, as he explains here: “ ‘For He {God} commanded and they were created; He spoke, and they were made’ Whom, therefore did He command? The Word {Jesus}.” Irenaeus also wrote that Jesus was “a god”: “But he {Jesus} is himself in his own right, beyond all men who ever lived, a god {Gr. theos, without the article} and Lord, and King eternal, and the incarnate Word.” He called Jesus “a god” in the same sense as Philo called the Word “a god,” or as Paul and John called Jesus “a god.” He considered Jesus the Archangel: an “improperly called god.”

Justin clearly called Jesus an angel and "a god".

Justin Martyr was a prominent apologist of Christianity in the first half of the second century CE. He affirmed the superiority of God over Jesus: “... we know no ruler more kingly or just than He {Jesus} except God {the Father} who begot Him.” In other words, “God is more kingly than Jesus.” He also wrote that God begat Jesus, before he created the world, and that Jesus was the captain of God’s army (i.e. the Archangel): “... God begat, before all creatures, a Beginning {Jesus} ... who is called by the Holy Spirit {in the Holy Scriptures}, now {heis called} the Glory of the Lord, now {he is called} the Son, again Wisdom, again {he is called} an Angel, then a god, and then Lord and Logos; and on another occasion He calls Himself Captain, when He appeared in human form to Joshua the son of Nave {Nun}.” Justin Martyr did not mix God with Jesus. His phrase “again an Angel, then a god” indicates that the titles “angel” and “god” were synonymous. Justin Martyr also wrote that God is the cause of all things: “ ‘But what do you call God?’ said he. ‘That which always maintains the same nature, and in the same manner, and is the cause of all other things--that, indeed, is God.’ So I answered him.’ ” He believed that God is the cause of all things. He is the cause of Jesus. He begat Jesus. Justin Martyr believed that God “always maintains the same nature.” This implies that Jesus is not God. Jesus did not maintain the same nature. He assumed the human nature. He considered Jesus “an improperly called god”: an angel. Here is a quotation from Justin Martyr that is of great theological importance: “{we believe that:} ... He is the Son of the living God Himself, and believe Him to be in the second place, and the Prophetic Spirit in the third.” The Father God comes first, Jesus comes second, and the Holy Spirit comes third.

 

[javajo]

That's exactly what I mentioned the Anarthrous for. We have the same problem with John 1:1c in how to interpret Justin Martyr. Should read as "A god". Same with If you want to ignore the part about him calling Jesus an angel, go for it.

Sure. From: Early Christian faith on Trinity, deity of Christ, personality of the Holy Spirit

150 AD Justin Martyr [Note: Justin never says Jesus is a created angel. Justin never refers to Jesus as an angel before creation, although JW’s will falsely affirm such from the text below. Justin, however, does refer to Jesus as the "angel of the Lord" after creation in various appearances to man. Many but not all Trinitarians would have no problem affirming, along side of Justin, that Jesus as uncreated God, was referred to as the Angel of Jehovah.] "HOW GOD APPEARED TO MOSES. And all the Jews even now teach that the nameless God spake to Moses; whence the Spirit of prophecy, accusing them by Isaiah the prophet mentioned above, said "The ox knoweth his owner, and the *** his master's crib; but Israel doth not know Me, and My people do not understand." And Jesus the Christ, because the Jews knew not what the Father was, and what the Son, in like manner accused them; and Himself said, "No one knoweth the Father, but the Son; nor the Son, but the Father, and they to whom the Son revealeth Him." Now the Word of God is His Son, as we have before said.
And He is called Angel and Apostle; for He declares whatever we ought to know, and is sent forth to declare whatever is revealed; as our Lord Himself says, "He that heareth Me, heareth Him that sent Me." From the writings of Moses also this will be manifest; for thus it is written in them, "And the Angel of God spake to Moses, in a flame of fire out of the bush, and said, I am that I am, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob, the God of thy fathers; go down into Egypt, and bring forth My people." And if you wish to learn what follows, you can do so from the same writings; for it is impossible to relate the whole here. But so much is written for the sake of proving that Jesus the Christ is the Son of God and His Apostle, being of old the Word, and appearing sometimes in the form of fire, and sometimes in the likeness of angels; but now, by the will of God, having become man for the human race, He endured all the sufferings which the devils instigated the senseless Jews to inflict upon Him; who, though they have it expressly affirmed in the writings of Moses, "And the angel of God spake to Moses in a flame of fire in a bush, and said, I am that I am, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob," yet maintain that He who said this was the Father and Creator of the universe. Whence also the Spirit of prophecy rebukes them, and says, "Israel doth not know Me, my people have not understood Me." And again, Jesus, as we have already shown, while He was with them, said, "No one knoweth the Father, but the Son; nor the Son but the Father, and those to whom the Son will reveal Him." The Jews, accordingly, being throughout of opinion that it was the Father of the universe who spake to Moses, though He who spake to him was indeed the Son of God, who is called both Angel and Apostle, are justly charged, both by the Spirit of prophecy and by Christ Himself, with knowing neither the Father nor the Son. For they who affirm that the Son is the Father, are proved neither to have become acquainted with the Father, nor to know that the Father of the universe has a Son; who also, being the first-begotten Word of God, is even God. And of old He appeared in the shape of fire and in the likeness of an angel to Moses and to the other prophets; but now in the times of your reign, having, as we before said, become Man by a virgin, according to the counsel of the Father, for the salvation of those who believe on Him, He endured both to be set at nought and to suffer, that by dying and rising again He might conquer death. And that which was said out of the bush to Moses, "I am that I am, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, and the God of your fathers," this signified that they, even though dead, are let in existence, and are men belonging to Christ Himself. For they were the first of all men to busy themselves in the search after God; Abraham being the father of Isaac, and Isaac of Jacob, as Moses wrote." (Justin Martyr, First Apology, ch 63) 150 AD Justin Martyr "It is not on this ground solely," I said, "that it must be admitted absolutely that some other one is called Lord by the Holy Spirit
besides Him who is considered Maker of all things; not solely [for what is said] by Moses, but also [for what is said] by David. For there is written by him: ‘The Lord says to my Lord, Sit on My right hand, until I make Thine enemies Thy footstool,’ as I have already quoted. And again, in other words: ‘Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever." (Dialog of Justin with Trypho, a Jew, ch 56) 150 AD Justin Martyr "Then I replied, "Reverting to the Scriptures, I shall endeavor to persuade you, that He who is said to have appeared to Abraham, and to Jacob, and to Moses, and who is called God, is distinct from Him who made all things, — numerically, I mean, not [distinct] in will. For I affirm that He has never at any time done anything which He who made the world — above whom there is no other God — has not wished Him both to do and to engage Himself with." (Dialog of Justin with Trypho, a Jew, ch 56)
150 AD Justin Martyr "… even so here, the Scripture, in announcing that the Angel of the Lord appeared to Moses, and in afterwards declaring him to be Lord and God, speaks of the same One, whom it declares by the many testimonies already quoted to be minister to God, who is above the world, above whom there is no other [God]." (Dialog of Justin with Trypho, a Jew, ch 60)
150 AD Justin Martyr "I shall give you another testimony, my friends," said I, "from the Scriptures, that God begat before all creatures a Beginning, [who was] a certain rational power [proceeding] from Himself, who is called by the Holy Spirit, now the Glory of the Lord, now the Son, again Wisdom, again an Angel, then God, and then Lord and Logos; and on another occasion He calls Himself Captain, when He appeared in human form to Joshua the son of Nave (Nun). For He can be called by all those names, since He ministers to the Father’s will, and since He was begotten of the Father by an act of will; just as we see happening among ourselves: for when we give out some word, we beget the word; yet not by abscission, so as to lessen the word [which remains] in us, when we give it out: and just as we see also happening in the case of a fire, which is not lessened when it has kindled [another], but remains the same; and that which has been kindled by it likewise appears to exist by itself, not diminishing that from which it was kindled. The Word of Wisdom, who is Himself this God begotten of the Father of all things, and Word, and Wisdom, and Power, and the Glory of the Begetter, …" (Dialog of Justin with Trypho, a Jew, ch 60)

 

[javajo]

As far as Iranaeus, here is what he actually said: Early Christian faith on Trinity, deity of Christ, personality of the Holy Spirit

180 AD Irenaeus "...
so that He indeed who made all things can alone, together with His Word, properly be termed God and Lord: but the things which have been made cannot have this term applied to them, neither should they justly assume that appellation which belongs to the Creator." - Against Heresies, Book III, ch. 8, section 3. 180 AD Irenaeus "
But the Son, eternally co-existing with the Father, from of old, yea, from the beginning, always reveals the Father to Angels, Archangels, Powers, Virtues..." (Against Heresies, Book II, ch. 30, section 9) 180 AD Irenaeus "
Christ Jesus is our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King." (Against Heresies, Book I, ch. 10, section 1) 180 AD Irenaeus "For I have shown from the scriptures, that no one of the sons of Adam is as to everything, and absolutely, called God, or named Lord.
But that He is Himself in His own right, beyond all men who ever lived, God, and Lord, and King Eternal, and the Incarnate Word, proclaimed by all the prophets, the apostles, and by the Spirit Himself, may be seen by all who have attained to even a small portion of the truth. Now, the scriptures would not have testified these things of Him, if, like others, He had been a mere man. (Irenaeus Against Heresies, chapter xix.2) 180 AD Irenaeus "For the Church, although dispersed throughout the whole world even to the ends of the Earth, has received from the apostles and from their disciples the faith in one God, Father Almighty, the creator of heaven and Earth and sea and all that is in them; and in one Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who became flesh for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who announced through the prophets the dispensations and the comings, and the birth from a Virgin, and the passion, and the Resurrection from the dead, and the bodily Ascension into heaven of the beloved Christ Jesus our Lord, and his coming from heaven in the glory of the Father to re-establish all things; and the raising up again of all flesh of all humanity, in order that to
Jesus Christ our Lord and God and Savior and King, in accord with the approval of the invisible Father, every knee shall bend of those in heaven and on Earth and under the earth . . . " (Against Heresies 1:10:1). 180 AD Irenaeus "[The Gnostics] transfer the generation of the uttered word of men to the
eternal Word of God, attributing to him a beginning of utterance and a coming into being . . . In what manner, then, would the word of God--indeed, the great God himself, since he is the Word--differ from the word of men?" (Against Heresies 2:13:8). 180 AD Irenaeus "Nevertheless,
what cannot be said of anyone else who ever lived, that he is himself in his own right God and Lord . . . may be seen by all who have attained to even a small portion of the truth" (Against Heresies, 3:19:1).

• 180 AD Irenaeus "It was not angels, therefore, who made us, nor who formed us, neither had angels power to make an image of God, nor any one else, except the Word of the Lord, nor any Power remotely distant from the Father of all things. For God did not stand in need of these [beings], in order to the accomplishing of what He had Himself determined with Himself beforehand should be done, as if He did not possess His own hands. For with Him were always present the Word and Wisdom, the Son and the Spirit, by whom and in whom, freely and spontaneously, He made all things, to whom also He speaks, saying, "Let Us make man after Our image and likeness; " [Gen. 1:26]" (Against Heresies 4:20:1).
  [*]180 AD Irenaeus [Quoting John 1:1] "’...and the Word was God,’ of course,for that which is begotten of God is God." (Against Heresies, Book I, ch. 8, section 5)
  [*]180 AD Irenaeus "And againwhen the Son speaks to Moses, He says, ‘I am come down to deliver this people,’ (Exodus 3:8 - the burning bush). For it is He who descended and ascended for the salvation of men." (Against Heresies, Book III, ch. 6, section 2)
  [*]180 AD Irenaeus "Proofs From The Apostolic Writings, That Jesus Christ Was One And The Same, The Only Begotten Son Of God, Perfect God And Perfect Man." (Against Heresies, Book III, ch. 16, Chapter Title)
  [*]180 AD Irenaeus [in reference to Jesus] "For I have shown from the Scriptures, thatno one of the sons of Adam is as to everything, and absolutely, called God, or named Lord. But that He is Himself in His own right, beyond all men who ever lived, God, and Lord, and King Eternal, and the Incarnate Word, proclaimed by all the prophets, the apostles, and by the Spirit Himself,...Now, the Scriptures would not have testified these things of Him, if, like others, He had been a mere man." (Against Heresies, Book III, ch. 19, section 2)
  [*]180 AD Irenaeus "God, then, was made man, and the Lord did Himself save us, giving us the token of the Virgin." (Against Heresies, Book III, ch. 21, section 1)
  [*]180 AD Irenaeus "Christ Himself, therefore, together with the Father,is the God of the living, who spake to Moses, and who was also manifested to the fathers." (Against Heresies, Book IV, ch. 5, section 2)
  [*]180 AD Irenaeus "And for this reason all spake with Christ when He was present [upon earth], and they named Him God." (Against Heresies, Book IV, ch.6, section 6)
  [*]180 AD Irenaeus "God formed man...it was not angels, therefore, who made us...neither had angels power to make an image of God." (Against Heresies, Book IV, ch. 20, section 1)
  [*]180 AD Irenaeus "Wherefore the prophets, receiving the prophetic gift from the same Word, announced His advent according to the flesh, by which theblending and communion of God and man took place according to the good pleasure of the Father, the Word of God foretelling from the beginning that God should be seen by men, and hold converse with them upon earth." (Against Heresies, Book IV, ch. 20, section 4)
  [*]180 AD Irenaeus "The Word, that is,the Son, was always with the Father." (Against Heresies, Book IV, ch. 20, section 3)
  [*]180 AD Irenaeus "Christ Jesus, the Son of God, because of His surpassing lovefor His creation, condescended to be born of the virgin." (Against Heresies, Book III, ch. 4, section 2)
  [*]180 AD Irenaeus "Therefore neither would the Lord, nor the Holy Spirit, nor the apostles, have ever named as God, definitely and absolutely, him who was not God, unless he were truly God; nor would they have named any one in his own person Lord, except God the Father ruling over all, and His Son who has received dominion from His Father over all creation, as this passage has it: "The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit Thou at my right hand, until I make Thine enemies Thy footstool." Here the [Scripture] represents to us the Father addressing the Son; He who gave Him the inheritance of the heathen, and subjected to Him all His enemies. Since, therefore, the Father is truly Lord, and the Son truly Lord, the Holy Spirit has fitly designated them by the title of Lord. And again, referring to the destruction of the Sodomites, the Scripture says, "Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah fire and brimstone from the LORD out of heaven." For it here points out that the Son, who had also been talking with Abraham, had received power to judge the Sodomites for their wickedness. And this [text following] does declare the same truth: "Thy throne, O God; is for ever and ever; the scepter of Thy kingdom is a right scepter. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity: therefore God, Thy God, hath anointed Thee." For the Spirit designates both [of them] by the name, of God — both Him who is anointed as Son, and Him who does anoint, that is, the Father." (Book 3, ch 6)

 

[Shermana]

and who is called God, is distinct from Him who made all things,

Jesus is the one who fashioned all things, this was common Philo logos Theology which Justin was trying to explain. The Father (the source) is the CEO and Jesus is the Foreman. I hope you concede on the issue of the Anarthrous, I almost thought this was a misuse, but this appears to be a legitimate use of "God" as opposed to "a god".

Also, telling me that this is what Iraneus "actually said" does not disprove what I said about the Anarthrous. Your source is Bible.ca which also reads John 1:1 as "Word was G-d", so they are making the same presumption about the use of the Anarthrous, which is flat out incorrect. In order to disprove what my source says, you'll have to explain why they are wrong in how to read Iraneus's writings. I've already explained my case, time for yours.

 

[javajo]

I am posting their exact quotes, you are posting what people said they said. You are wrong, my friend. Jesus is God and a member of the Blessed Trinity.

 

[Shermana]

Oh I see, your source is "exact quotes" and my source is what people said he said. I see. And you have the proof for it?

 

[javajo]

Oh I see, your source is "exact quotes" and my source is what people said he said. I see. And you have the proof for it?

I read yours, its not exact quotes in context as mine are. The truth is the early Christians did believe Jesus is God. That's why he is called Immanuel--God with us, and why Isaiah says:

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

 

[Shermana]

Apparently you don't think you have to actually prove your case, you're on the wrong forum. We're talking about Anarthrous use of "Theos" and Greek Grammar.

If you want to change the subject get into Isaiah 9:6, please tell me why it says "The" mighty god when there's no article. Some early translations have "a strong god". See the Greek for that verse. Also, the word "Everlasting Father" is in the posessive as "Avi Ad" and thus is a wrong, though very common translation. It should be "Father of the ages" as in the Douay Rheims.

Also, the word "Immanuel" means God is with us just like "Ezekiel" means "God Strengthens us". Under your Logic, Joshua was the Savior too.

 

[javajo]

You take the early writers out of context, you don't quote them fully and exactly, you twist the Bible to fit your heretical doctrine. There's a few groups you'd fit in well with.

 

[Shermana]

You take the early writers out of context, you don't quote them fully and exactly, you twist the Bible to fit your heretical doctrine. There's a few groups you'd fit in well with.

Thanks, now perhaps you'd actually like to explain why my link is incorrect with specifics and exacts instead of just personal accusations. Telling me that I twist the Bible to suit my heretical doctrine is a complement from you I suppose, in lieu of actually addressing my arguments. I take it as you conceding defeat. I understand it may be gratifying to accuse me of scripture twisting and being a heretic instead of actually proving how, but that's not how this forum works. Perhaps you'd enjoy the CARM forums more if you're into just preaching without actually addressing people's arguments. Or try the discussion forums, you don't have to actually defend any arguments there. Apparently you don't think you have to actually answer people's questions or defend your own translation. Wrong forum for that.

In my opinion, YOU are a heretic who twists scripture, but rather than just telling you so, I actually prove how. Why don't you try the same thing? In fact, I consider lawless (though mainstream) heretics like yourself (and there be many) to be the main reason why my own people hate Christ so much. In fact, I dare you to pray and ask if I am truly twisting scripture.

 

[javajo]

I don't think your 'proof' is that good, but really, sorry for calling you names. I'm not conceding anything, I'm tired and I'm done tonite. The evidence is clear to me that the Bible and the early Christians say Christ is God and I believe it. We could argue til the cows come home and it wouldn't prove a thing.

 

[Shermana]

I don't think your 'proof' is that good, but really, sorry for calling you names. I'm not conceding anything, I'm tired and I'm done tonite. The evidence is clear to me that the Bible and the early Christians say Christ is God and I believe it. We could argue til the cows come home and it wouldn't prove a thing.

It doesn't matter whether you think my proof is good or not, you have to explain why if you say its wrong. Otherwise, try the Discussion forums instead. Finally, like I've said numerous times, the words "Early CHristians" gets used for people anywhere from 30-300 AD, it needs to be divided into Ages, it's a muddy word. Your argument that the Trinity only was discussed because people in the 2nd century were now starting to oppose it is rubbish, there's no proof whatsoever, and there's plenty of proof that the early fathers were not Trinitarian whatsoever, as I proved with Justin and Iraneus. Your argument is based on circular presumptions. Whether you accept this or not is not my problem. But on this forum, you must actually prove what I say wrong.

 

[outhouse]

Your missing the point

The god of the bible OT evolves continually as different authors of different times write about their deity, the deity changes to match their current needs. You also had different editing of older books of the bible to match their changing needs when they needed to redefine said deity

hebrews were polytheistic in the early days up until second isaiah around 606BC when they made the switch to monotheism. You had elohim to start with and in times of war yahwey was worshipped. You had asherah and baal and more.


however christians were no different, with jesus on the scene and as they proclaimed he was a deity they had to define how divine he was. They could not have a seprerate deity, that would open up a big can of worms that reverted them back to polytheism. the arguements that led to the trinity was born. had it not been for Constantine there would be more branches in chrsitianity that would have weakened it severely as no solid definition of divinity would have been born.

As ancient hebrews defined and changed their gods, so did christians as they defined the trinity.

They were not that different if you look at the grand sceme of things. The only difference is hebrews were monotheistic for about 600 years. christians were never monotheistic because it was based off the god deity and the son of god deity.

as far as the holy spirit and how christians redefined that.

Holy Spirit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Holy Spirit of YHWH, abound, however it has rejected any idea of The Eternal God as being either Dual or Triune

the monotheistic essence of Judaism: "Hear, O Israel: the Lord is our God, the Lord is one," found in Deuteronomy 6:4 .



so what we have here is the people that created the original god, did not look at him as duality

only the new christian sect redefines the spirit after 600 years of a monotheistic tradition.

 

[Mark2020]

In my opinion,YOU are a heretic who twists scripture, but rather than just telling you so, I actually prove how.

Without giving the original Greek and proving that this was the mainstream belief then, you proved nothing.

In fact, I dare you to pray and ask if I am truly twisting scripture.

Oh, I think this has been proved many times already. I could even start a topic about it!

 

[Mattweedhacker]

I read yours, its not exact quotes in context as mine are. The truth is the early Christians did believe Jesus is God. That's why he is called Immanuel--God with us, and why Isaiah says:

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

[FONT=Palatino Linotype, serif]VARIANT LXX TEXTS OF (ISAIAH 9:6) IN THE TIME OF EUSEBIUS [/FONT]

[FONT=Palatino Linotype, serif] ALTERNATIVE READINGS TO “MIGHTY GOD”. [/FONT]

[FONT=Palatino Linotype, serif] MODERN RECEIVED LXX TEXT: [/FONT]

[FONT=Palatino Linotype, serif] ISAIAH 9:6 (LXX): "...ὅτι [6.] παιδίον ἐγεννήθη ἡμῖν υἱὸς καὶ ἐδόθη ἡμῖν οὗ ἡ ἀρχὴ ἐγενήθη ἐπὶ τοῦ ὤμου αὐτοῦ καὶ καλεῖται τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ μεγάλης βουλῆς ἄγγελος ἐγὼ γὰρ ἄξω εἰρήνην ἐπὶ τοὺς ἄρχοντας εἰρήνην καὶ ὑγίειαν αὐτῷ [7.] μεγάλη ἡ ἀρχὴ αὐτοῦ καὶ τῆς εἰρήνης αὐτοῦ οὐκ ἔστιν ὅριον ἐπὶ τὸν θρόνον δαυιδ καὶ τὴν βασιλείαν αὐτοῦ κατορθῶσαι αὐτὴν καὶ ἀντιλαβέσθαι αὐτῆς ἐν δικαιοσύνῃ καὶ ἐν κρίματι ἀπὸ τοῦ νῦν καὶ εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα χρόνον ὁ ζῆλος κυρίου σαβαωθ ποιήσει ταῦτα...” - (Modern Text of the Greek OT: Septuagint with Diacritics.)[/FONT]


[FONT=Palatino Linotype, serif]LXX VERSION'S AVAILABLE IN EUSEBIUS TIME[/FONT]
​

[FONT=Palatino Linotype, serif][FONT=Palatino Linotype, serif]EUSEBIUS[/FONT][FONT=Palatino Linotype, serif] OF CAESAREA (circa. 260 to 340 C.E. ): [/FONT]“...καὶ τούτῳ γοῦν ὄνομα εἶναι λέγεται κατὰ μὲν τοὺς ἑβδομήκοντα «μεγάλης βουλῆς ἄγγελος»...” - (Quotation by Eusebius of 3rd Century B.C. LXX Greek text.)[/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino Linotype, serif]
[FONT=Palatino Linotype, serif]EUSEBIUS[/FONT][FONT=Palatino Linotype, serif] OF CAESAREA (circa. 260 to 340 C.E.): [/FONT]“...His Name is said to be, according to the Septuagint, “Angel of Great Counsel...” - (Eusebius of Caesarea: Demonstratio Evangelica. Tr. W.J. Ferrar (1920) -- Book 7 CHAPTER 1 (b) From Isaiah.)

GREEK TEXT: “...καὶ ὥς τινα τῶν ἀντιγράφων ἔχει, «θαυμαστὸς σύμβουλος, θεὸς ἰσχυρός, ἐξουσιαστής, ἄρχων εἰρήνης, πατὴρ τοῦ μέλλοντος αἰῶνος»...” - ("Some" or a minority of LXX-MSS, in the 2nd - 3rd Century, Septuagint.)[/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino Linotype, serif]
SOME-COPIES LXX[FONT=Palatino Linotype, serif] (circa. 260 to 340 C.E.):[/FONT] “...and as some of the copies have, "Wonderful Counsellor, Mighty God, Potentate, Prince of Peace, Father of the World to Come...” - ( Eusebius of Caesarea: Demonstratio Evangelica. Tr. W.J. Ferrar (1920) -- Book 7 CHAPTER 1 (b) From Isaiah.)
[FOOTNOTE]: Notice Gk., ( [/FONT][FONT=Palatino Linotype, serif]θεὸς ἰσχυρός ) [/FONT][FONT=Palatino Linotype, serif]like John 1:1 is anathorus. It can be translated: "...( a ) strong god..."
[/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino Linotype, serif]GREEK TEXT: "...κατὰ δὲ τὸ Ἑβραϊκόν, ὡς ὁ μὲν Ἀκύλας φησίν· «ὅτι παιδίον ἐγεννήθη ἡμῖν, υἱὸς ἐδόθη ἡμῖν, καὶ ἐγένετο μέτρον ἐπ' ὤμου αὐτοῦ. καὶ ἐκάλεσεν τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ θαυμαστὸς σύμβουλος, ἰσχυρός, δυνατός, πατὴρ ἔτι, ἄρχων εἰρήνης, καὶ τῆς εἰρήνης αὐτοῦ οὐκ ἔστιν πέρας»..." - (2nd - 3rd Century, Hebrew according to Aquila, 7.1.136.) [/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino Linotype, serif]
AQUILLA (Died circa. 135 C.E.): “...In the Hebrew, as Aquila says: "For unto us a child is born, to us a son is given, and a measure was upon his shoulders. And his name was called Wonderful Counsellor, Mighty, Powerful, Father, even Prince of Peace, and of his peace there is no end..." - ( Eusebius of Caesarea: Demonstratio Evangelica. Tr. W.J. Ferrar (1920) -- Book 7 CHAPTER 1 (b) From Isaiah.)

GREEK TEXT: "...τίς δ' ἂν οὖν γένοιτο κατὰ μὲν τὸν Ἀκύλαν καὶ τὰς εἰσέτι νῦν φερομένας παρ' Ἑβραίοις μαρτυρίας ἐν ἀνθρώποις γεννώμενος, καὶ «παιδίον» γινόμενος, «θαυμαστὸς σύμβουλος» καὶ «ἰσχυρός», «δυνατός», καὶ «πατὴρ ἔτι», καὶ «ἄρχων εἰρήνης», ἧς εἰρήνης οὔποτέ φησιν ἔσεσθαι τέλος..." - (2nd - 3rd Century, Then Current Hebrew & Aquila's Greek translation with a slight variantion, 7.1.139.)

AQUILLA (Died circa. 135 C.E.): “...But who can this be who, in Aquila's version and those even now current among the Hebrews, is "begotten among men, and become a child, Wonderful and Strong, Counsellor, Powerful, and Father, yea even Prince of peace, Whose peace, he says, will never end?..." - ( Eusebius of Caesarea: Demonstratio Evangelica. Tr. W.J. Ferrar (1920) -- Book 7 CHAPTER 1 (b) From Isaiah.)
[/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino Linotype, serif]GREEK TEXT: “...καὶ κατὰ Θεοδοτίωνα «θαυμαστῶς βουλεύων, ἰσχυρός, δυνάστης, πατήρ, ἄρχων εἰρήνης, τῷ πληθύνειν τὴν παιδείαν, οὗ τῆς εἰρήνης οὐκ ἔστιν πέρας»..." - (Theodotion's LXX Greek.)

THEODOTION (Died circa. 200 C.E.): “...or in Theodotion's "Counselling wonderfully, Strong, Powerful, Father, Prince of peace, for increasing instruction, of Whose peace there is no end...” - ( Eusebius of Caesarea: Demonstratio Evangelica. Tr. W.J. Ferrar (1920) -- Book 7 CHAPTER 1 (b) From Isaiah.)[/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino Linotype, serif]
GREEK TEXT: "...ὡς δὲ ὁ Σύμμαχος· «νεανίας γὰρ ἐδόθη ἡμῖν, υἱὸς ἐδόθη ἡμῖν. καὶ ἔσται ἡ παιδεία αὐτοῦ ἐπὶ τοῦ ὤμου αὐτοῦ, καὶ κληθήσεται τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ παραδοξασμός, βουλευτικός, ἰσχυρός, δυνατός, πατὴρ αἰῶνος, ἄρχων εἰρήνης, καὶ τῆς εἰρήνης αὐτοῦ οὐκ ἔστιν πέρας»..." - (Symmachus LXX Greek: 7.1.137.)

SYMMACHUS (circa. late 2nd C.E.): “...And as Symmachus: "For a youth is given to us, a son is given us; and his instructions shall be upon his shoulders, and his name shall be called Miraculous, Counselling, Strong, Powerful, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace, and of his peace there is no end..." - ( Eusebius of Caesarea: Demonstratio Evangelica. Tr. W.J. Ferrar (1920) -- Book 7 CHAPTER 1 (b) From Isaiah.)
[/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino Linotype, serif]GREEK TEXT: “...κατὰ δὲ τὸν Σύμμαχον «παραδοξασμός, βουλευτικός, ἰσχυρός, δυνατός, πατὴρ αἰῶνος, ἄρχων εἰρήνης», καὶ ταύτης ἀπείρου καὶ ἀτελευτήτου...” - (Symmachus LXX Variant Greek.)

SYMMACHUS (circa. late 2nd C.E.): “...or in that of Symmachus, "Miraculous, Counselling, Strong, Powerful, Eternal Father, Prince of peace, and that endless and infinite...” - ([Variant text] Eusebius of Caesarea: Demonstratio Evangelica. Tr. W.J. Ferrar (1920) -- Book 7 CHAPTER 1 (b) From Isaiah.) [/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino Linotype, serif]
TO SUMMARIZE: [/FONT]

[FONT=Palatino Linotype, serif]Readings for the Heb., ( [/FONT][FONT=Palatino Linotype, serif]אֵ֣ל גִּבֹּ֔ור [/FONT][FONT=Palatino Linotype, serif]) Heb., ( el gibbor ) in the LXX

According to Eusebius who had access to Origen's Hexapala in the LXX Versions of his time and before:

1. μεγάλης βουλῆς ἄγγελος = Original LXX
2. θεὸς ἰσχυρός = Small Minority of LXX MSS
3. ἰσχυρός, δυνατός = Aquila
4. ἰσχυρός, δυνατός = Authorised Heb., LXX
5. ἰσχυρός, δυνατός = Symmachus
6. ἰσχυρός, δυνάστης = Theodotion
7. μεγάλης βουλῆς ἄγγελος = Received LXX

W.J. Ferrar (1920) English Translation:

1. Angel of Great Counsel
2. Mighty God [ Or "...( a ) strong god..." ]
3. Mighty, Powerful
4. Strong, ... Powerful
5. Strong, Powerful
6. Strong, Powerful
7. Angel of Great Counsel

Interesting to note that here in Isa 9:6; in the original 3rd Century B.C.E. LXX and at Psa 8:6 Heb., ( el ) and Heb., ( elohim ) words for "god/God" are interpreted as "Angel/Angels" and by the Apostle Paul in the book of Hebrews.

And Jesus is here unambiguously and unmistakeably called an "Angel":yes:[/FONT]

 

[Falvlun]

I would say that from the perspective of the Bible Students (and I assume also of the JWs), the question is not "is it possible for him to be Triune?", but rather: Is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob revealed in the Bible as being triune, as being three separate and distinct persons, all of whom are wholly the only true God at all times, and from eternity past?

That is true. But do note that Christianity is not merely Judaism 2.0. It is its own distinct religion, which means that even if God was conceptualized as only One by the Jews (and in the OT), that does not follow that Christianity could not reasonably conceptualize God as Triune, and support that through the NT.

In truth, from Genesis to Revelation, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Exodus 3:14,15), is presented as a unipersonal God who raised up the prophet like Moses from amongst the sons of Israel, and who raised that prophet from death. (Deutoernomy 18:15-20; Acts 3:13-26; Hebrews 1:1,2) All through the New Testament, forms of the word transliterated as THEOS, when applied to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, are always used to speak of one person, and not once as more than one person. Throughout the New Testament, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob -- always presented as one person -- is distinguished from His son, as can be seen from Acts 3:13-26.

It would make sense that Theos refers to one, no? Because that's the whole point: that God still is only One God, despite being Triune.

As for Acts 3:13-26, that does not undisputably show that Jesus is not God; it only shows that he has a function separate from God the Father. Do you have any other verses?

In all of the scriptures claimed to present otherwise, the spirit of human imagination has to be consulted, and the resulting imaginations and assumptions have to be added to, and read into, each and every scripture to get added-on dogma appear to be supported by whatever scripture is being cited. No idea or concept of a triune God is ever, no not even once, presented in any scripture of the Bible.

Your bolded part perplexes me. There does seem to be pretty clear cut instances, particularly in the NT, where Jesus is considered to be God.

Isaiah 9:6: For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. (One of Jesus' names is "might God")

2 Peter 1:1 "...To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ" (Peter calls Jesus God there)

John 1:1-4 "1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind."

John 1:14 " The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth." (In these last two passages, John is talking about Jesus; Jesus is the Word made flesh; and the Word has been clearly defined as God in this passage.)

John 8:58 "“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” " (Jesus uses "I am" here, which is the name God told Moses from the burning bush. It denotes Jesus claiming to be "I am".)

There are other verses, but these ones stuck out to begin with.

 

[Falvlun]

[FONT=Palatino Linotype, serif]W.J. Ferrar (1920) English Translation: [/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino Linotype, serif]1. Angel of Great Counsel [/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino Linotype, serif]2. Mighty God [ Or "...( a ) strong god..." ][/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino Linotype, serif]3. Mighty, Powerful [/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino Linotype, serif]4. Strong, ... Powerful [/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino Linotype, serif]5. Strong, Powerful [/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino Linotype, serif]6. Strong, Powerful [/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino Linotype, serif]7. Angel of Great Counsel [/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino Linotype, serif]And Jesus is here unambiguously and unmistakeably called an "Angel":yes:[/FONT]

You have 7 interpretations there: 4 translate to "Mighty Powerful", 2 translate to "Angel", and one translates to "Mighty God".

How can you say that Angel is the unambiguous meaning of the word then? If we were going by numerical majority, it should be Mighty Powerful. And the sheer fact that there are multiple interpretations means that it's not unambiguous.

 

[javajo]

Your argument that the Trinity only was discussed because people in the 2nd century were now starting to oppose it is rubbish, there's no proof whatsoever, and there's plenty of proof that the early fathers were not Trinitarian whatsoever, as I proved with Justin and Iraneus.

Actually there is proof in the Bible itself, warning of false teachers and heresies. I actually provided full quotes from Justin and Iraneus where they said over and over that Jesus is God.

 

[javajo]

[FONT=Palatino Linotype, serif]And Jesus is here unambiguously and unmistakeably called an "Angel"[/FONT]

Lol, well I've seen JW's say Jesus is 'a' Mighty God in Isaiah 9:6, instead of Mighty God, but that it calls him an angel is a first. Of course all the other English Bibles that call him Mighty God are all corrupt having translated the text to fit their theology...or is it the JW's who changed the original to fit their theology? :sarcastic

 

[Shermana]

Actually there is proof in the Bible itself, warning of false teachers and heresies. I actually provided full quotes from Justin and Iraneus where they said over and over that Jesus is God.

And you utterly failed to address any of the arguments on my link about the issue of the use of the Anathrous. Justin and Iraneus clearly used said "A god" and your reply to my link is "nuh uh". You can say "my link is right and yours is wrong because they just say they think so" but if you feel that kind of argument has any weight on a debate board, you're on the wrong forum.