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Refusal to shake hands with women unethical

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
In a recent ethics column in the Toronto Star, the columnist argued that it's unethical in a workplace for a man to shake hands with other men, but refuse to shake hands with women on religious grounds. The columnist argues that if a person has a religious objection to casual physical contact with the opposite sex, then they shouldn't shake hands with anyone.

https://www.thestar.com/life/2016/0...omen-in-office-not-ok-ethically-speaking.html

Do you agree? Disagree?
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
I agree because not shaking hands with someone, be they a woman, Jew, or black sends the message that they're not worthy of the courtesy. If it's because of religious custom then I assume it's because the religion doesn't regard such people as equals. Want to express your religion's discrimination then do it elsewhere.


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George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
In a recent ethics column in the Toronto Star, the columnist argued that it's unethical in a workplace for a man to shake hands with other men, but refuse to shake hands with women on religious grounds. The columnist argues that if a person has a religious objection to casual physical contact with the opposite sex, then they shouldn't shake hands with anyone.

https://www.thestar.com/life/2016/0...omen-in-office-not-ok-ethically-speaking.html

Do you agree? Disagree?
I think in general it is best and more polite to follow the customs of the society you are in on all such things.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Greetings, both with same gender, and across gender, are cultural. Many people who haven't been around much don't realise this. (It might make a good topic for interfaith.) When I'm in a culture that does a lot of greetings with hugging and/or that double cheek to cheek fake kissing thing they do, I really have a hard time. It seems like just such an invasion of personal space.

I don't think this is unethical at all, to refuse, and shouldn't be considered as some insult. If it makes a person uncomfortable, it does, plain and simple.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I agree because not shaking hands with someone, be they a woman, Jew, or black sends the message that they're not worthy of the courtesy.
It could instead be a message that courtesies & greetings are extended differently to men vs women.
To infer that it's necessarily about unworthiness is to be socially brittle.
If it's because of religious custom then I assume it's because the religion doesn't regard such people as equals. Want to express your religion's discrimination then do it elsewhere.
.
I wouldn't assume that.
I'd judge by how the individual alternatively handles the situation.
 

Kuzcotopia

If you can read this, you are as lucky as I am.
Agreed.

Also like to add that the opposite is true as well. There are often employees who are too touchy feely, and think it's okay to hug everyone.

Boundaries are important, and some people don't want to be touched in a familiar way.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
But we accommodate exceptions, eg, not expecting orthodox Jews to work on Saturday, not expecting religious vegetarians to eat BBQ offered them.
Such things can be handled graciously & fairly on both sides.
We can expect Muslim or Orthodox Jewish men to not shake hands with women. This doesn't automatically imply that we should expect them to create an unequal situation by shaking hands with the men.
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
Too hard for me to conclude it is unethical given the parameter of (simple) handshake. I would think the general rule in the wordplace ought to be no touching of any kind, regardless of gender (or level of authority). I imagine some jobs would have exceptions to this, but that the general rule makes most sense. Yet, handshaking is so common, I don't see that rule taking effect anytime soon.

I've had office jobs where women will touch me (and other people) in ways that men do not. Not necessarily inappropriate ways, but if going with the general rule above or the fact they men generally don't touch each other that way, and probably ought to touch women in that way, then it is possibly inappropriate. But is seemingly so natural. Like how a woman can get by with touching a man on his forearm while making a point, whereas most guys would never do that with another human.

Me, personally, I'm prone to allowing people to touch me or me touching them, thus handshaking not a problem. But as a rule for everyone, I think it better to assume it never okay. If someone broke the no touching rule, I wouldn't see that as unethical, just following the context of the workplace rules. Since we currently have loose rules around touching in the workplace, then I do think it is up to the individual. If they wish to have some people touch them and not others, that's on them, and not unethical. But given what the article is saying, it is something to address beyond religious convictions. Perhaps something to ask about during interviews?
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
I wouldn't assume that.
I'd judge by how the individual alternatively handles the situation.
When in Rome do as the Romans do is always the default presumption of Romans. I don't think most people expect foreigners to hold onto their social customs when in a different country, but rather adopt those of their host country.


.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
When in Rome do as the Romans do is always the default presumption of Romans. I don't think most people expect foreigners to hold onto their social customs when in a different country, but rather adopt those of their host country.
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I'm OK with them retaining customs which don't cause problems.
Refusing to shake hands is OK.
Telling women to wear a veil isn't.
It's all about where the line is drawn, & trying to accommodate each other.
 

bobhikes

Nondetermined
Premium Member
In a recent ethics column in the Toronto Star, the columnist argued that it's unethical in a workplace for a man to shake hands with other men, but refuse to shake hands with women on religious grounds. The columnist argues that if a person has a religious objection to casual physical contact with the opposite sex, then they shouldn't shake hands with anyone.

https://www.thestar.com/life/2016/0...omen-in-office-not-ok-ethically-speaking.html

Do you agree? Disagree?

I don't think a simple handshake dismiss un-ethical as long as he points out it is a religious requirement or personal choice and treats her equally in everything else.

If a French person greeted everyone with kisses on the cheeks I would hope he wouldn't find my request to not kiss me un-ethical even if my only reason is that it makes me uncomfortable.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
When in Rome do as the Romans do is always the default presumption of Romans. I don't think most people expect foreigners to hold onto their social customs when in a different country, but rather adopt those of their host country.


.
The article was from Toronto, a very multicultural city. Who is to say the nature of Rome in that particular workplace? To that, the article didn't give enough information.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
But we accommodate exceptions, eg, not expecting orthodox Jews to work on Saturday, not expecting religious vegetarians to eat BBQ offered them.
Such things can be handled graciously & fairly on both sides.
I agree accommodations can be made when understood by all parties involved. I was thinking for example of a guy walking into a business meeting with two guys and a woman. The first guy instinctively shakes his hand, the second guy follows, the woman (who is clueless to the guy's religious customs) follows by extending her hand, I think the polite thing for the guy to do is shake her hand a̶n̶d̶ ̶g̶r̶a̶b̶ ̶h̶e̶r̶ ̶a̶s̶s̶ when in a western country.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
The article was from Toronto, a very multicultural city. Who is to say the nature of Rome in that particular workplace? To that, the article didn't give enough information.
When I worked in the Toronto area, I participated in many business meetings. At some, people made a point of shaking hands with the other people there. More often, nobody shook hands at all, and it wasn't considered strange or disrespectful.

What I never saw - and what I think would be taken as off-putting and disrespectful - was someone shaking hands with just the men (or just the women).
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I agree accommodations can be made when understood by all parties involved. I was thinking for example of a guy walking into a business meeting with two guys and a woman. The first guy instinctively shakes his hand, the second guy follows, the woman (who is clueless to the guy's religious customs) follows by extending her hand, I think the polite thing for the guy to do is shake her hand a̶n̶d̶ ̶g̶r̶a̶b̶ ̶h̶e̶r̶ ̶a̶s̶s̶ when in a western country.
The article I linked to described a situation where the man came into a meeting room with many people, first encountered several women and refused to shake their hands, then went over and shook hands with the men.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I agree accommodations can be made when understood by all parties involved. I was thinking for example of a guy walking into a business meeting with two guys and a woman. The first guy instinctively shakes his hand, the second guy follows, the woman (who is clueless to the guy's religious customs) follows by extending her hand, I think the polite thing for the guy to do is shake her hand a̶n̶d̶ ̶g̶r̶a̶b̶ ̶h̶e̶r̶ ̶a̶s̶s̶ when in a western country.
Or he could make some elaborate inscrutable gesture which gives the impression of great respect.
(And then he'd have to remember it.)
 
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