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Refugee: What is the impact on a Muslim?

Discussion in 'Quranic Debates' started by stvdv, Apr 25, 2018.

  1. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

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    Refugee: What is the impact on a Muslim. According to Koran?

    I am curious how Koran experts solve this problem.

    Koran 5:51:
    O you who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are [in fact] allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to them among you - then indeed, he is [one] of them. Indeed, Allah guides not the wrongdoing people.
    [allies = protectors]

    The above verse implies IMHO:
    1): Koran prohibits Muslim to become refugee in Christian part of Europe [Turkey might be oke I guess]
    2): Instead a Muslim is advised to seek help in a Muslim country
    3): If a Muslim still decides to become a refugee in Europe then he is not a Muslim anymore [as per Koran]
    4): So if Koran says you are not a Muslim then being a Muslim you must accept this
    5): Muslim becomes one of them, meaning he now has to follow the culture etc of his protector

    I live in Holland, and we do have this refugee problem. So I like to know how Koran advices to solve this correctly.

    I also would like to know how other Muslims look at these Muslims who seek non-Islam protectors
     
    #1 stvdv, Apr 25, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2018
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  2. PopeADope

    PopeADope Habemus papam

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    There are worse verses in the Qur'an.

    People just aren't speaking the truth about the threat we are facing.

    Sweden opened the door to Islamic immigration and became the rape capitol of Europe.

    Many of the immigrants call Swedish women "unveiled whores" and sexually assault them, because in their Muslim-majority countries, it is a horrible crime to be unveiled, and it is okay to sexually assault women who are, because they are "asking for it".

    That mentality needs to stay out of the free-world.

    Even Donald Trump has failed us by refusing to quote the Qur'an and teach people about the danger of letting such people into our country!
     
    #2 PopeADope, Jul 19, 2018
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  3. PopeADope

    PopeADope Habemus papam

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    "...Mayor Henriette Reker telling women to adopt a “code of conduct” to prevent further sexual assaults, which crossed the line into “victim blaming.”

    ...The second, from the broader German government, was to crack down hard — not on those responsible for the assaults, but for those criticizing the Muslim immigrants who may have perpetrated them...
    ...the female victims of the attacks were initially ignored by the political class.
    ...It appears Germany was more concerned with looking intolerant of asylum seekers than the well-being of female victims.
    ...But instead of addressing the possibility that women have become victims due to these migrants, Germany has opted to crack down on anyone speaking ill of them — as if they, and not the women who were left battered and bruised just trying to celebrate the New Year, were the real victims."
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost.com/2016/01/10/europe-is-enabling-a-rape-culture/amp/

    If you invite people into your country who follow a book with much bigotry, hate, violence, and torture, and invite people from countries where it is a crime to be unveiled female, and acceptable to rape such women, expect rape and violence from such people in the free-world.

    Welcoming them in is asking for it.
     
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  4. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
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    5:51 is mentioned very often, as one would expect.

    My current understanding is that it is a fairly typical specimen of the most troublesome verses of the Qur'an.

    At first glance, under a literal reading, is is very problematic because it pretty much demands a belligerent attitude towards Christians and the Jewish People - and does so claiming that to be the divine guidance, no less.

    And that is more than likely indeed the intended meaning.

    But exactly because it is so gross and destructive most people, including many and perhaps most Muslims, refuse outright to take it very seriously. They take refuge in the (probably vain) hope that there is some significant missing context, or that the translation and interpretation are not quite as obvious as they seem to be.

    It is a very pernicious situation, because it creates a destructive and unnecessary impasse than can't ever be resolved. The text of the Qur'an is what it is and is explicitly forbidden from ever changing. Yet the implied attitude is well beneath anything resembling a true religion.

    The end result is that well-meaning, conscious Muslims are forever doomed to keep citing the verse and attempting to convince themselves that the most violent among them are getting it all wrong when they take it seriously.


    A fine example of the many self-inflicted maladies of Islaam.
     
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  5. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

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    Thank you, you have put it very eloquently.

    This verse seems to put Muslims into "Checkmate" position; they can't make any good move:
    a) Stick to Quran and stay out of non-Muslim countries (as protectors; so don't live there, unless you become Christian [one of them])
    b) Don't use this Quran verse, thereby implying that the Quran is not flawless (which is forbidden)

    It is an interesting position though. If I were God and creating religions I might have put something like this into it. Makes it a real challenge. Good for another thread "Why did Allah have Muhammad write this verse".

    Anyway the verse is not very bad. It just separates Muslims from non-Muslims. Each stay in their own countries. Solves fights between religions
    Also If there were no foreigners in Muslim countries then mutual Muslim fights will be less also [Western lifestyle/religion upsets Muslims too much]
    Last week Pakistan politician expressed desire to nuke Holland over a drawing of Muhammad. Proofs Islam is not ready to integrate with the West.

    One bottleneck being this verse in the Quran. When this is solved, lots will be solved.

    So before integrating West and Islam it is wise for Muslims to solve this problem first, so that their conscience is clean.
    When they don't do that, we need not be very creative to see that the only option is to conquer that country so Muslim Law rules there
    Of course the West will not be too happy with that. In UK they have already sharia Law, but that feels not correct to me; violating Quran 5:51

    And along the same lines Christians need to learn that evangelizing is hurtful to Muslims, so should refrain from that practice in Muslim countries, Russia, China
     
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  6. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
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    Because Allah knows better than to expect people to live in the shadow of simple scripture and expects good Muslims to learn better as well, I would hope? :)

    I beg to differ. It is utterly disastrous, atrocious even. As part of a presumed scripture from God it is a true atheist-maker, really.


    Uh, no. That can't ever happen in such a clean, simplistic way. Muslims and non-Muslims will always have some degree of interaction, and they should know better than to be at each other's throath simply because a verse says that they ought to.


    Or with Muslims :)
     
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  7. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

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    1: Yes, Allah did not give us our conscience for nothing:)
    2: Oh I am open to the option that the ultimate goal of God is "Atheism". The final and best "evangelizing" irony-lesson. I met a Master who included Atheism and Humanism as valid as religions to reach your goal in life. Even telling "evangelizing leads to atheism". So I even would be surprised if atheism is not the final result. Atheist just being nice humans using your conscience to make proper decisions and not scriptures [seems common sense to me]
    3: It's always good to have your own house in order before expanding. That was my thought behind it. First solve verse 5:51
    4: Correct Muslims do have a lot of homework to do. I do like it that Islam is called "Religion of Peace". At least it reminds them of what to focus on
     
    #7 stvdv, Jul 19, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2018
  8. Anthem

    Anthem Active Member

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    You misinterpret it wrong. No, it is not wrong of them to become refugees in christian countires...
     
  9. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

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    The verse is very clear. Don't take Christians as your allies BUT when you do THEN you are one of them = You are not Muslim anymore.

    They can become refugees, but the Koran sees them as Christians, not as Muslims anymore

    So far not one Muslim objected to my interpretation (in 6 month), so I can't be that far off. Usually they correct me very fast when I make mistakes.
     
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  10. Anthem

    Anthem Active Member

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    Hmph. That is such BS.
     
  11. Anthem

    Anthem Active Member

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    The Quran does not say that muslims cannot be friends with christians or jews. Not to speak of living on the same land with them.

    The word "ally" can be translated on many ways. Anti islamic people like to translate it as "friend' so it looks like the quran says muslims should not be friends with others than muslims. Also, living in the same land as christians for instance doesnt make one either an ally or a friend or a protector.
     
  12. Anthem

    Anthem Active Member

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    I assume it to be mostly because your logic makes no sense - in any case, not all muslims understand the Quran.
     
  13. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

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    I think it is only because this is just what it is. The Muslims just have to accept that some verses contradict each other. Bible has the same issues.
    I am fine with that. For me no need that the Bible or Koran are infallible. They are both written by humans, they tend to be NOT infallible.

    This is just one of these issues the Muslims can't get around. So the usual approach is to NOT respond. And that is fine with me.
     
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  14. Anthem

    Anthem Active Member

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    It isn't from people, but god. It was told by angel gabriel to Mohammad who dictated it to people who could write.

    The contradictions are misinterpretations.

    If you read only some english translation without interpretation you're bound to end up nowhere.
     
  15. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

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    I did not claim that the Koran is without BS

    But on the other hand this verse does solve problems that many Muslims have with western culture. What you don't see can't bother you

    Probably in that time they had similar issues, hence this verse. I don't say the verse should be applied nowadays also

    I do believe there are many verses in the Koran, when applied nowadays, seem like BS to me

    Only Muslims tend to have a problem with facing infallible Koran being not infallible
     
  16. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

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    You misread my line. I did not claim the Bible and Koran were "not from God". I just claim that they were written by humans

    Using my common sense I easily understand that when humans write down divine words the words easily become "human" like

    If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably it writes like a duck
     
  17. Anthem

    Anthem Active Member

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    That is not the way Muslims look at it. They believe everything in the Quran is directly from god. Not an interpretation or a translation or a hurried writing while listening. They say Mohammad remembered everything he had been told and told them as they were. Angel gabriel usuallly showed up in human form. Probably speaking Arabic (yes(?)).
     
  18. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

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    Some people don't want to look at reality

    Muhammad was a human, not an Avatar who knows all things without the need of Angel whispering.

    So whenever a human gets info from Angels the info gets as good and pure as the human is (weakest link principle)
     
  19. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
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    That seems to be the official line, indeed.

    Which only makes the actual text that more surprising and unconvincing, IMO.
     
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  20. Anthem

    Anthem Active Member

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    But Mohammad was chosen. Would an all knowing god choose a messanger that cant get the damn message right?
     
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