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Recycling Discussion

Aasimar

Atheist
Someone made an off-comment on another post about recycling Pamphlets vice throwing them away, which triggered another minor explosion in my fragile brain. I was kind of curious as to how people feel about recycling. If you weren't aware, there is actually a lot of controversy about many different types of recycling. While it is claimed recycling products such as paper for example causes less energy to produce usable paper, the overall process may end up using more energy then the landfill process (Trucks to pickup, sorting facilities, chemicals to remove dyes, more trucks between these places, etc.) Though it seems widely agreed recycling Aluminum is worth while, paper and other products seem like they may be a waste of time or even worse, detrimental to recycle. Anyone else done any reasearch on this, I've only dabbled in it a little bit, but what I found kinda made me sad. I hope that it really is a useful process and we aren't just doing it so that we can feel like we're doing something for the environment when we really aren't.
 

BucephalusBB

ABACABB
I'll be honest, I recycle glas and paper because we have different trashcans in house for them, so it's more convienient. For the rest, I don't actualy recycle.

O except for pamfleats then ofcourse, they deserve to be recycled ;)
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
Recycling paper isn't about saving energy, but about saving trees and landfill space. I'm not at all surprised that it costs more energy to produce recycled paper than to drive a truck to a landfill and tip its load over.
 

Aasimar

Atheist
Recycling paper isn't about saving energy, but about saving trees and landfill space. I'm not at all surprised that it costs more energy to produce recycled paper than to drive a truck to a landfill and tip its load over.

Yeah, but we have enormous amounts of landfill space (It's underground anyway, I've been to a landfill and it's just a big valley) and there has never And we have more trees in the US then we had 20 years ago. So is it really worth it? Seriously check out some modern landfills, I've toured one before, you can probably check out quite a bit online. They are extremely impressive, they look like parks, like there should be children playing on them.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
Yeah, but we have enormous amounts of landfill space (It's underground anyway, I've been to a landfill and it's just a big valley) and there has never And we have more trees in the US then we had 20 years ago. So is it really worth it? Seriously check out some modern landfills, I've toured one before, you can probably check out quite a bit online. They are extremely impressive, they look like parks, like there should be children playing on them.
Yeah, that "big valley" and its "underground" is part of what we're saving by recycling paper.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Yeah, but we have enormous amounts of landfill space (It's underground anyway, I've been to a landfill and it's just a big valley) and there has never And we have more trees in the US then we had 20 years ago. So is it really worth it?
Landfill space is running out in many areas. Until recently, Toronto was trucking its waste to a landfill in Michigan. They've found new space ("only" 3 hours away instead of 6 :)), but it's limited, so they're very keen to divert as much waste as possible.

When you're looking at that level of effort and energy usage just to get garbage into a hole in the ground (to say nothing of the effects of actually digging and lining the hole, and all the environmental work that has to go into keeping the thing safe), a bit of water and electricity for paper recycling looks like an okay deal.

And when you compare landfills against something like the large-scale composting that has started here lately (everything from kitchen scraps and paper towels to yard waste) that actually generates surplus electric power, it makes even more sense to keep stuff out of the traditional garbage stream.
 

Isabella Lecour

Active Member
There are many different ways to recycle. It doesn't always include dumping it in the recycle bin and that's that. Paper does break down in the environment and it is useful even reused on a home setting; provideing that you have ground available and the notion to re-use what is advailable.

Compost bins, making craft paper, donate to shelters, they really go through some paper; donate to schools used/old magazines are just what I could come up with on the top of my head. Pamplets I'd toss in the compost or if I was making a batch of paper, in that instead.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
There are many different ways to recycle. It doesn't always include dumping it in the recycle bin and that's that. Paper does break down in the environment and it is useful even reused on a home setting; provideing that you have ground available and the notion to re-use what is advailable.

Good point: recycling is the last of the "three 'r's". Reusing and reducing come first. For example, we take paper that's printed on only one side, chop it in quarters and stick it in a little organizer thing by the phone to take messages on.

Whatever the impacts of recycling a particular product, you'll have virtually zero if you reuse, and absolutely none if you reduce your use of it (for the portion that you've reduced by, anyhow).
 

Aasimar

Atheist
Landfill space is running out in many areas. Until recently, Toronto was trucking its waste to a landfill in Michigan. They've found new space ("only" 3 hours away instead of 6 :)), but it's limited, so they're very keen to divert as much waste as possible.

When you're looking at that level of effort and energy usage just to get garbage into a hole in the ground (to say nothing of the effects of actually digging and lining the hole, and all the environmental work that has to go into keeping the thing safe), a bit of water and electricity for paper recycling looks like an okay deal.

And when you compare landfills against something like the large-scale composting that has started here lately (everything from kitchen scraps and paper towels to yard waste) that actually generates surplus electric power, it makes even more sense to keep stuff out of the traditional garbage stream.

The landfill I visited produced power as well (It piped methane gas generated in the landfill and powered a large area, I don't remember how large but It was like a suburban town) I think we're using different terms for landfills though, I've seen garbage dumps that are horrendous, but landfills are awesome engineering achievements. I suppose it depends where you live and where your trash gets sent as to which would be better.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I think we're using different terms for landfills though, I've seen garbage dumps that are horrendous, but landfills are awesome engineering achievements. I suppose it depends where you live and where your trash gets sent as to which would be better.
How pretty the landfill is isn't necessarily a function of its impact. I suspect that the "awesome engineering acheivements" around you took quite a bit of work and resources to set up in the first place, and quite a bit of work and resources to maintain. These resources do have a footprint.

Regardless of what a landfill looks like on the surface, there are often challenges below ground that have to be addressed. You alluded to one of them: methane production; some landfills do collect this to generate power (when the off-gassed methane is clean enough to use for this purpose), but this is more of a cost offset than a net benefit.

Also, landfills usually need some sort of impermeable liner, such as a thick layer of clay, to keep leachate from the waste out of the local groundwater. Even with these liners, many landfills end up having to do extensive dewatering: they need to place a system of wells and pumps around the site to pump contaminated water out of the ground to be treated. For systems like this to work, they need to pump massive quantities of water (since the whole point of the system is to stop groundwater flow, and hence leachate flow, away from the landfill... it's a major prospect to pump enough water to make this happen). The impacts of this dewatering on the local groundwater can be significant, especially for a large or poorly-designed landfill, regardless of how park-like it looks on the surface.

Now... not all landfills have to dewater, but many do. Also, the methane production at many landfills is either of poor quality or small quantity, so power production isn't a viable option (often in these cases, they just burn off the combustible gases in the name of odour control). In any case, just because it looks like parkland on the surface doesn't mean that it doesn't have environmental impacts.
 

yossarian22

Resident Schizophrenic
Yeah, that "big valley" and its "underground" is part of what we're saving by recycling paper.
Its hardly like we are running out of room.
A 10 square mile area can hold a ridiculous amount of trash. Something along the lines of everything for the next 100 years.

Landfill space is running out in many areas. Until recently, Toronto was trucking its waste to a landfill in Michigan. They've found new space ("only" 3 hours away instead of 6 :)), but it's limited, so they're very keen to divert as much waste as possible.
This has more to do with logistics than actual space issues. We have the space for the trash, its just over there
When you're looking at that level of effort and energy usage just to get garbage into a hole in the ground (to say nothing of the effects of actually digging and lining the hole, and all the environmental work that has to go into keeping the thing safe), a bit of water and electricity for paper recycling looks like an okay deal.
But its not just a bit of water and electricity. Its gas for the trucks, and metal for to make new trucks, and cash for new people to drive the trucks
And when you compare landfills against something like the large-scale composting that has started here lately (everything from kitchen scraps and paper towels to yard waste) that actually generates surplus electric power, it makes even more sense to keep stuff out of the traditional garbage stream.
Composting makes sense. Its been done for a while, but recycling plastics, and to a lesser extent paper is pointless and a waste of energy. Most of the paper comes from tree farms anyhow.
 

Booko

Deviled Hen
Yeah, but we have enormous amounts of landfill space (It's underground anyway, I've been to a landfill and it's just a big valley) and there has never And we have more trees in the US then we had 20 years ago. So is it really worth it? Seriously check out some modern landfills, I've toured one before, you can probably check out quite a bit online. They are extremely impressive, they look like parks, like there should be children playing on them.

Maybe you have enormous landfill space, but metro Atlanta (pop 5 million) doesn't, and it doesn't look a thing like a park. I wouldn't get anywhere near it.

I do recycle most paper (not the glossy stuff)...by composting it. It seems silly to go buy compost and mulch when you can make your own for nothing. I guess cockroaches and mold have a use after all. ;)

When we had ducks, we used all the waste paper we could get for the base of the duck pen. :D I used to collect it from businesses where I go.

Our county has a recycling program, and we use it, but I couldn't tell you how effective that is, other than the yard waste recycling program, which I know is effective.

The main efficiency problem with recycling is the distance the items to be recycled have to travel to the place where they are recycling. The reason there are so few recycling plants is not enough people recycle to justify building them yet.

Those problems can be solved over time, though.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
This has more to do with logistics than actual space issues. We have the space for the trash, its just over there
But it's one of the major problems with landfills: cities produce the most demand for waste (just because of the numbers of people living in them), but the existence of the city usually makes it economically unviable to build on the more valuable land in or near them.

But its not just a bit of water and electricity. Its gas for the trucks, and metal for to make new trucks, and cash for new people to drive the trucks
Within a certain range, these are all common costs to whatever system you're proposing. If you collect garbage, you need trucks as well. Diverting waste from landfill-bound garbage collection to recycling collection reduces the demand, and therefore the cost, for traditional garbage pickup.

When I was growing up (IIRC) we had garbage collection twice a week. When they brought in recycling, this changed to once a week; the number of trucks my street saw over the course of a week didn't change.

More recently, when they brought in green bin (i.e. household compostables) pickup here, garbage switched to bi-weekly... the number of tucks involved in pickup went up only slightly.

On top of that, the loads have been reduced. The garbage trucks that go around the neighborhood are probably only picking up one garbage bag at each house instead of two. Each truck can have a wider pickup area because it can do more houses before it has a full load. Also, other transportation costs, such as between the Regional waste centre and the far-flung landfill, are a straight function of tonnage and volume, so they go down even more rapidly than the costs for curbside pickup.

So... yes, there are costs associated with recycling, but there are savings associated with it as well.




Fun fact: by weight, the most recycled product on Earth is asphalt pavement.
 

Booko

Deviled Hen
Landfill space is running out in many areas. Until recently, Toronto was trucking its waste to a landfill in Michigan.

I'd bet large sums of cash the residents of Michigan don't know any more about who's was using that landfill in MIchigan than they were told about the PBB put in the cattle feed years ago.

I love gov't. :rolleyes:

And when you compare landfills against something like the large-scale composting that has started here lately (everything from kitchen scraps and paper towels to yard waste) that actually generates surplus electric power, it makes even more sense to keep stuff out of the traditional garbage stream.

I'd like to hear more about the surplus electric power.

Around here we're recommending the use of a simple and cheap means for the home composter to compost kitchen scraps without attracting the local wood rats.

The other method, which is even simpler, is anaerobic composting, which I use. I have a bucket that seals tightly and when it's full I let it sit out until it gets really *foul* smelling so even the rats wouldn't touch it, and then I dump it in my bin. The smell goes away quickly as the air comes into contact, but even the rats don't want half rotted food.

I have a small patch of land I garden though. Composting is not much use for someone in an apartment or someone that thinks "gardening" is writing a check for their landscaper.
 

Booko

Deviled Hen
The landfill I visited produced power as well (It piped methane gas generated in the landfill and powered a large area, I don't remember how large but It was like a suburban town) I think we're using different terms for landfills though, I've seen garbage dumps that are horrendous, but landfills are awesome engineering achievements. I suppose it depends where you live and where your trash gets sent as to which would be better.

Did they mention how they deal with the mercury that leaches out of batteries?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I'd bet large sums of cash the residents of Michigan don't know any more about who's was using that landfill in MIchigan than they were told about the PBB put in the cattle feed years ago.

I love gov't. :rolleyes:
They found out it was happening, which is why the state government banned the import of solid waste starting within a year or two... hence the impetus for the City of Toronto to get moving and find a new site for its waste. Within a fairly short amount of time, that super-landfill will only be taking proper American garbage. :rolleyes:

I'd like to hear more about the surplus electric power.

Around here we're recommending the use of a simple and cheap means for the home composter to compost kitchen scraps without attracting the local wood rats.

The other method, which is even simpler, is anaerobic composting, which I use. I have a bucket that seals tightly and when it's full I let it sit out until it gets really *foul* smelling so even the rats wouldn't touch it, and then I dump it in my bin. The smell goes away quickly as the air comes into contact, but even the rats don't want half rotted food.
The industrial-scale composting that I've seen is anaerobic as well. They throw some sort of super-duper microbes in the mix to speed up the process, and they capture the methane that's released, which they burn to generate electricity.

They end up making money three ways: they sell the electricity they produce, they sell the end-result compost to farmers, and they charge the municipalities to take the waste to begin with. It sounds like a pretty good system... but it is smelly like you say. There was a definite odour on the property at the composting facility that I visited personally; it wasn't really noticable from off-site, though.
 

Booko

Deviled Hen
But its not just a bit of water and electricity. Its gas for the trucks, and metal for to make new trucks, and cash for new people to drive the trucks

Last time I checked, the trash men had trucks and were paid also. ;)

Composting makes sense. Its been done for a while, but recycling plastics, and to a lesser extent paper is pointless and a waste of energy. Most of the paper comes from tree farms anyhow.

Composting is much easier, either for the homeowner or at a county level, and doesn't have the toxic issues landfills and some recycling efforts have.

Recycling has always been an on and off profitable thing.

When I was a kid we made lots of money collecting paper for recycling -- but the paper mills were in the same town, so the cost of moving all that paper was minimal, and surely less than moving fresh trees from logging sites.

At various times aluminum was easily and cheaply recycled, but when the aluminum prices tank then it becomes less cost-efficient.

I'm not sure we'll ever be able to make it cost-efficient to recycle some things in more rural settings, but it's eminently possible to do so in large metropolitan areas where I live. It would require recycling the materials closer to home, though I gather our local recycling program shreds items like plastic and metals and ships them via rail, which is cheaper per tonne than trucking it.

The cost of the trucks and men to haul the recycleables is not higher than putting things in a landfill. It's a wash, as both methods use trucks and salaries for the men who haul the stuff.

The additional costs for recycling typically involve shipping longer distances to processing plants. But depending on the material being recycled, it may be cheaper overall, because the material was not "paid for", for example with aluminum, by having to mine for it and pay the miners for their efforts. Someone quite literally gave away that aluminum for free.

As with any new technology, it will take a while to shake out the inefficiencies and figure out the logistics. But I would rather make the effort than not, as over the long term it will make more sense than just trashing everything.
 

Booko

Deviled Hen
They found out it was happening, which is why the state government banned the import of solid waste starting within a year or two... hence the impetus for the City of Toronto to get moving and find a new site for its waste. Within a fairly short amount of time, that super-landfill will only be taking proper American garbage. :rolleyes:

The State of Michigan has had so much toxic crap foisted on them already (or attempts to do the same) you can bet the people would be up in arms over that. We've produced enough of our own waste for a long time. There's no reason why we should take anyone elses.

Would I be right to assume the landfill was on the east side of the lower peninsula somewhere? The soil there is sandy generally and there's a lake every time you turn around. I could think of easier places to put a mega landfill.

The industrial-scale composting that I've seen is anaerobic as well. They throw some sort of super-duper microbes in the mix to speed up the process, and they capture the methane that's released, which they burn to generate electricity.

Our local landfill doesn't do that, regrettably. Whatever methane it produces is just burned, which adds to our continual air pollution problem with no payback in power generation.

Yes, well, I have not been too impressed generally by local, state or regional entities when it comes to doing much sensible about using resources. Lake Lanier is nearly a mudflat now with our extended drought. I couldn't believe we were allowed to water anything at all in the spring.

They end up making money three ways: they sell the electricity they produce, they sell the end-result compost to farmers, and they charge the municipalities to take the waste to begin with. It sounds like a pretty good system... but it is smelly like you say. There was a definite odour on the property at the composting facility that I visited personally; it wasn't really noticable from off-site, though.

We don't sell our compost to farmers (that I know of) but the larger yard materials are chipped and used as mulch in public areas like along roadsides, saving the county money as they don't have to buy as much mulch. The compost is used in various developments. And all of it's available to the public for free for anyone who shows up with something to carry it in.

I used the public compost once on a project, but they didn't get the heat up enough to kill off some of the seeds, so we had random tomatoes showing up in the area, which we just left because someone was coming across the street from the apartment complex and eating them, so it seemed a shame to remove them just because they didn't fit with a native shrub border.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
The State of Michigan has had so much toxic crap foisted on them already (or attempts to do the same) you can bet the people would be up in arms over that. We've produced enough of our own waste for a long time. There's no reason why we should take anyone elses.
But that's the thing: you're not getting any less garbage, just different garbage. That landfill will still be cranking through garbage at capacity, taking it from someplace else.

Still, I didn't really like shipping our problem away for someone else to deal with.

Would I be right to assume the landfill was on the east side of the lower peninsula somewhere? The soil there is sandy generally and there's a lake every time you turn around. I could think of easier places to put a mega landfill.

I think so. I know it was in Michigan, and I know it would've stuck with me if I had heard they were shipping it to the UP.

Our local landfill doesn't do that, regrettably. Whatever methane it produces is just burned, which adds to our continual air pollution problem with no payback in power generation.
This may be a consequence of what's going in, not necessarily poor planning. I imagine that the methane coming off a pile that's nothing but organic waste is much more consistent in quality than what comes off a landfill that just anything goes into. It could be that what you have isn't clean enough to burn for power.
 
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