cataway
Well-Known Member
prove a false belief ?
-
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Reconciling Revelation's Lake of Fire and a Loving God
- Thread starter Samantha Rinne
- Start date
Onoma
Active Member
No, just be able to demonstrate an understanding of Greek
If I said I was " in trouble " you wouldn't think trouble was a place, would you ?
-___-
Onoma
Active Member
great, then we agree it's not a place, but probably has a different meaning
I'm happy you aren't propping up the stale false dichotomy of " it is or it isn't "
Cheers
Samantha Rinne
Resident Genderfluid Writer/Artist
No, I think he's right.
The place is not a place but destruction (why fire is mentioned).
But what I quibble with is if there ever is such a thing as "complete destruction."
When you burn wood, there's ash.
When you burn oysters, you get lime.
When you melt metal, you get dross.
And so on. There's always some leftovers.
The place is not a place but destruction (why fire is mentioned).
But what I quibble with is if there ever is such a thing as "complete destruction."
When you burn wood, there's ash.
When you burn oysters, you get lime.
When you melt metal, you get dross.
And so on. There's always some leftovers.
cataway
Well-Known Member
fire destroys. the lake of fire destroys completely ..as in gone and gone for ever . not even remembered any more
Samantha Rinne
Resident Genderfluid Writer/Artist
This contradicts several other points, however.
"But this is something you did! You were evil." Except in some cases, the only apparent evil was choosing the wrong religion. Would Gandhi, who relieved an entire country of suffering be condemned to this fate for not being a Christian? On the other end of the scale, what about cultist types that declare themselves Christian yet are Branch Davidian types? Clearly actions seem more important than faith, as we could not reconcile who people simply for belonging to a fangroup could turn out better than those who earnestly try to do good in the world.
But let's talk about the idea that it's actions, not faith that can save one. As in, Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, all of them go to Heaven if they are good enough, and Hell otherwise. Putting aside that different religions have different ideas whether there even is afterlife instead of reincarnation or something, we have to ask... what's good enough? The Bible tells us in Romans 3:23 that all of us have failed and fallen short. If none of us are good enough to earn the seal of perfection from God, how then can any of us be so sinful that we cannot be forgiven? If God expects us to fail, then what can we do to disappoint him? The idea that there is something that you could do which could displease God to the point where he would never forgive you is wrong. In fact, it is the way of Satan, not God, that teaches there is such a thing as an irredeemable person.
How Satan Uses Shame Against You
Are You Unforgivable?
We're subsistence farmers. We know very well that fire does not destroy everything. We have wheat that we collected the wheat berries and tossed the chaff into the fireplace. When it is burned we will have ash. Ash will be used for soil. This soil will in turn grow new wheat.
Yes, everything about the original wheat is gone when the chaff is burned up. But this is never the of the story. I have to believe that God does want even the most sinful to redeem themselves. Even if they are punished and all they are is gone. Even if they have no memories. Even if they have to live a harsh existence to make their way back to God. God is not just someone who destroys evil people without any consideration. Humans do this sort of thing, squashing bugs, burning wood... Actually, that's a perfect analogy. There is wood we use for lumber, but also wood we use for burning. What evil did the burning wood do? It didn't. It's just most useful to be burned. But again, it doesn't just cease. Wood -> ash, which in turn has useful properties.
The thing is, these are new souls. The former (wicked) souls were turned into "ash" to "grow" new souls. What is true, is that all notion of (cataway, was it?) who is so wicked as to be burnt in the fire will be gone. There will be cataway soul ashes that God may use to make a person named Katarina. What isn't true is that there is no hope for the future. God remakes us all during our lives, and he will redeem (what's left of) us. But you are correct in saying that nothing recognizable will remain. This Katarina will not look like cataway, not act like cataway, and won't have any memories of cataway.
(This isn't reincarnation btw)
- The immortality of the soul
- The notion that God is merciful and just
- The aforementioned statement that nothing can separate us from God
- The Biblical notions of what shame and sin really are
"But this is something you did! You were evil." Except in some cases, the only apparent evil was choosing the wrong religion. Would Gandhi, who relieved an entire country of suffering be condemned to this fate for not being a Christian? On the other end of the scale, what about cultist types that declare themselves Christian yet are Branch Davidian types? Clearly actions seem more important than faith, as we could not reconcile who people simply for belonging to a fangroup could turn out better than those who earnestly try to do good in the world.
But let's talk about the idea that it's actions, not faith that can save one. As in, Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, all of them go to Heaven if they are good enough, and Hell otherwise. Putting aside that different religions have different ideas whether there even is afterlife instead of reincarnation or something, we have to ask... what's good enough? The Bible tells us in Romans 3:23 that all of us have failed and fallen short. If none of us are good enough to earn the seal of perfection from God, how then can any of us be so sinful that we cannot be forgiven? If God expects us to fail, then what can we do to disappoint him? The idea that there is something that you could do which could displease God to the point where he would never forgive you is wrong. In fact, it is the way of Satan, not God, that teaches there is such a thing as an irredeemable person.
How Satan Uses Shame Against You
Are You Unforgivable?
We're subsistence farmers. We know very well that fire does not destroy everything. We have wheat that we collected the wheat berries and tossed the chaff into the fireplace. When it is burned we will have ash. Ash will be used for soil. This soil will in turn grow new wheat.
Yes, everything about the original wheat is gone when the chaff is burned up. But this is never the of the story. I have to believe that God does want even the most sinful to redeem themselves. Even if they are punished and all they are is gone. Even if they have no memories. Even if they have to live a harsh existence to make their way back to God. God is not just someone who destroys evil people without any consideration. Humans do this sort of thing, squashing bugs, burning wood... Actually, that's a perfect analogy. There is wood we use for lumber, but also wood we use for burning. What evil did the burning wood do? It didn't. It's just most useful to be burned. But again, it doesn't just cease. Wood -> ash, which in turn has useful properties.
The thing is, these are new souls. The former (wicked) souls were turned into "ash" to "grow" new souls. What is true, is that all notion of (cataway, was it?) who is so wicked as to be burnt in the fire will be gone. There will be cataway soul ashes that God may use to make a person named Katarina. What isn't true is that there is no hope for the future. God remakes us all during our lives, and he will redeem (what's left of) us. But you are correct in saying that nothing recognizable will remain. This Katarina will not look like cataway, not act like cataway, and won't have any memories of cataway.
(This isn't reincarnation btw)
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Terry Sampson
Well-Known Member
cataway
Well-Known Member
please dont confuse your self . there really is no fire , its symbolic of what fire does .
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wellwisher
Well-Known Member
The four elements, which are earth, wind, fire and water symbolize the four psychological functions. Earth is instinct, wind is intuition, fire is emotions and water is thought and intellect.
The ocean is symbolic of the unconscious mind, while a lake by being a smaller body of water is connected to the personal unconscious mind. A lake occupies a hole in the earth. It is connected to instinct at some level.
A lake of water would be connected to thoughts and memories, while a lake of fire is connected to emotions and memories, each of a personal instead of collective nature. The lake of fire is where one will become tormented by unconscious emotions of guilt, regret, fear, depression, because of the emotional memories of sins one has committed against nature and instinct. The lake of fire is connected to a form of self punishment; the tormented soul.
In Revelations, almost everyone, except the Saints, gets sucked in by the AntiChrist, False Prophet and their minions. They do things that are not right or natural by any objective measure; abuse the innocent. They do it because the immoral herd defines it as right. These actions builds up inner guilt against nature and instinct; lake of fire is a hole in the earth, which one day, at a time of great stress, become conscious. It becomes a time of deep regret and torment; what did I do?? it is a type of healing process to balance the scales.
The ocean is symbolic of the unconscious mind, while a lake by being a smaller body of water is connected to the personal unconscious mind. A lake occupies a hole in the earth. It is connected to instinct at some level.
A lake of water would be connected to thoughts and memories, while a lake of fire is connected to emotions and memories, each of a personal instead of collective nature. The lake of fire is where one will become tormented by unconscious emotions of guilt, regret, fear, depression, because of the emotional memories of sins one has committed against nature and instinct. The lake of fire is connected to a form of self punishment; the tormented soul.
In Revelations, almost everyone, except the Saints, gets sucked in by the AntiChrist, False Prophet and their minions. They do things that are not right or natural by any objective measure; abuse the innocent. They do it because the immoral herd defines it as right. These actions builds up inner guilt against nature and instinct; lake of fire is a hole in the earth, which one day, at a time of great stress, become conscious. It becomes a time of deep regret and torment; what did I do?? it is a type of healing process to balance the scales.
Hi, thank you for asking.
In my opinion, Romans was talking about repented Christians only.
While I'm not sure about the lake of fire, there will be some seperation between the saints and the rest, as I see it.
It's a matter of protecting the saints from further attacks from others, as I see it.
So I do think life is fair and just in the long run. So is God, in my opinion.
God doesn't love to see people suffering. God has pure love. Additionally, God does not play favorites.
Samantha Rinne
Resident Genderfluid Writer/Artist
You just contradicted yourself.
Also...
Matthew 15:21-28 a woman comes to Jesus. She's not a Jew, she's not one of the chosen people. She's not a Christian either, if we extended this passage to modern times. She's a Canaanite. Basically someone from the Pre-Islamic pagan lands. Jesus tells her that his healing and his message (his salvation) are only for the children, and he's just an outsider. A dog. She is quick to point out that even dogs will take what crumbs they can get. The Pharisees thought this way, that there are worthy and unworthy. But I can't believe this is the way Heaven/Hell works.
Even symbolic fire has a symbolic purpose. Buddhism uses "snuffing" as a concept because they liken the process of burning to a fire being lighted and passed on. That is, everything about the old person is set on fire, and used to light a new flame. This is called rebirth rather than reincarnation, and is distinct because the reborn person is a different one. The old person who got things wrong is gone. Not saved.
Snuffing (nirvana) means you go out. The end of rebirth by stilling the fires that keep the process of rebirth going. That is, you stop burning up.
Now granted, this is a Buddhist syncretism (probably heresy), but the unclear nature of explanations of afterlife in either religion means we have idea whether this isn't the case. So that's my take. We are destroyed, and God uses our souls to create new things. New Heaven and Earth, new souls, and other new stuff.
Being close to God is hell if you don't want to be there.
I see... Scary.
cataway
Well-Known Member
OK, my bad.Buddhism is also going to be snuffed out. . i really dont see it making it to the lake of fire , a different fire ,yes a different fire makes that happen . yeah it should be gone long before the lake of fire happens .umm sorry
rational experiences
Veteran Member
If Jesus destroyed Satan does that make Jesus Holy?
How Did Lucifer Fall and Become Satan?
When we discuss science it is the condition the occult, nuclear, burning/converting, irradiating, and forcing unnatural change to natural history and natural form.
If science caused self to be life sacrificed and named it the Title Jesus, for it was looked back upon, history, was a written document as everyone would realise after all events occurred and then discussed as data.
Human life attacked named as the Jesus sacrifice and in that incident it said that Satan was destroyed.
Yet Satan is depicted to be in literature/science what God is not. God as one is stone...the held fused mass O no beginning and no end body.....just STONE.
Science however wants to release GOD mass/stone from its held coldest spatial fusion...and then release the Satanic attack, which changes the mass body of the planet and they get sacrificed.
As a human spiritual self, I never idealised the Jesus event to be Holy, yet not coerced to be involved in the group teaching, wondered why others did. To my life it was not rational to claim that occult history Holy.
Yet I also learnt that a law was imposed against occult nuclear converting of Earth, so they had to impose a condition. Any body status named HOLY was never to be altered again. And that history was after the fact/event, reason for passing that law reference.
How Did Lucifer Fall and Become Satan?
When we discuss science it is the condition the occult, nuclear, burning/converting, irradiating, and forcing unnatural change to natural history and natural form.
If science caused self to be life sacrificed and named it the Title Jesus, for it was looked back upon, history, was a written document as everyone would realise after all events occurred and then discussed as data.
Human life attacked named as the Jesus sacrifice and in that incident it said that Satan was destroyed.
Yet Satan is depicted to be in literature/science what God is not. God as one is stone...the held fused mass O no beginning and no end body.....just STONE.
Science however wants to release GOD mass/stone from its held coldest spatial fusion...and then release the Satanic attack, which changes the mass body of the planet and they get sacrificed.
As a human spiritual self, I never idealised the Jesus event to be Holy, yet not coerced to be involved in the group teaching, wondered why others did. To my life it was not rational to claim that occult history Holy.
Yet I also learnt that a law was imposed against occult nuclear converting of Earth, so they had to impose a condition. Any body status named HOLY was never to be altered again. And that history was after the fact/event, reason for passing that law reference.
Actually, I didn't contradict myself, cause anyone can repent. So, there is no favoritism. Entering heaven requires that you have repented of your sins. This is how I understand it.
The woman at the well approached Jesus. But after Jesus died, the Apostles even brought the message to the whole world (including Canaan) that everyone can enter a good relationship with God if they repent.
Even if the woman would have waited some years, the Apostels would have been more than glad to talk to her then.
Everyone is invited. No favoritism.
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wellwisher
Well-Known Member
An analogy is living a lifestyle that burns the candle from both ends. This runs the body down and then causes various ailments and sickness to appear. This sickness is a natural body reaction based on cause and affect and the limitations of the natural body.
The sickness is not due to an outside agent; God, punishing you, but is based on cause and affect that results from your own choices and free will exceeding natural limits.
This reaction by the body is a sign, but it does not alter the love of God for you. The lake of fire is the struggle you must go through to right your own ship. This repentance without regret brings one salvation from your sickness as the body rests and slowly corrects itself.
There is a alternate path of choice and will that corrects your condition, but your need to have faith in the forgiveness of sins. The lake of fire is the irrational emotional anguish; anger, denial and regret that proceeds the rational acceptance of the cause and affect that brought us where we are; lake of fire become the lake of water.
The sickness is not due to an outside agent; God, punishing you, but is based on cause and affect that results from your own choices and free will exceeding natural limits.
This reaction by the body is a sign, but it does not alter the love of God for you. The lake of fire is the struggle you must go through to right your own ship. This repentance without regret brings one salvation from your sickness as the body rests and slowly corrects itself.
There is a alternate path of choice and will that corrects your condition, but your need to have faith in the forgiveness of sins. The lake of fire is the irrational emotional anguish; anger, denial and regret that proceeds the rational acceptance of the cause and affect that brought us where we are; lake of fire become the lake of water.
Samantha Rinne
Resident Genderfluid Writer/Artist
The analogy being that my religion being syncretic, I look at this other religion and the words from Christianity "God desires all to be saved." Even in an ideal world this can't happen. People are going to reject God. People are going to get stuck in cursed or wasted lifestyles. People are going to get trapped in rage or depression, and miss the goal of the kingdom. How then does this Christian concept of redemption work for those who are beyond hope, either because they don't love Jesus, or because they feel unlovable?
So then I looked at Revelation with its lake of fire, which just feels worse. But supposedly Revelation is declared to be a hopeful message. Sure, it's hopeful if you count yourselves as Christian. But what about someone who took the Mark because it was that or starve to death? The Bible says everyone who has it gets thrown into this lake of fire. If that's the end foe someone whose only crime is hunger and desperation, then there's something very wrong with this message of hope.
So then we have this message about a New Earth and a New Heaven. From the standpoint of the already saved, this doesn't really make any sense. The secular are typically angry at God, this is why they strive so hard to deny him, they cannot accept a world where God seems (I say seems, for believe in an afterlife) to have killed their dog, their father, or whatever without a second thought. For the saved, merely having Heaven would be enough, wouldn't it?
So then it gave me an idea that it's like those blind guys pawing at an elephant that these are religious fragments that sonehow fit together. Hindus and Buddhists believe that reality is cyclical, whereas Christians and Jews believe it has a beginning and an end. Suppose we're all right. That the universe has begun before, but maybe it wasn't as good. That universe might not have had Jesus so the Romans won. Why do we have this prophecy of end times? Because it played out this way, and alot of people were damned. But the New Heaven and New Earth is sort of like a harvest. They gather the souls that can be saved, they burn the chaff, and they prepare for another harvest.
Nirvana or moksha are the process of freeing oneself from the constant end of being burned. Most Buddhists think this burning fire of rebirth happens alot of times, but what if it really only happens once at the end of the age (each time)? Honestly we can't know, but I have to believe the reason it was phrased this way (rather than, "All righteous go to Heaven" it says "there will be a New Heaven and a New Earth") is that God does want for us to make it across that line. Again, I can't know this. But this is my hope for a better world. That God will completely and utterly destroy this one, because it sucks.
cataway
Well-Known Member
your thought's come from the here and now ? the way things are now.
rational experiences
Veteran Member
History on Earth natural and the theme science thesis based on natural also.
Yet science is artificial, manipulated human male choice against the source of his own planet.
Said, in the past God O being one, stone, a planet owning all natural heavenly spirits/mass around its body created the life of the giants living in the Earth Garden.
Looking back, from his modern day re inherited life, reincarnated he said, human and animal natural life DNA returned/healed, due to one fact of the statement ICE.
Every December he said ICE gets reborn, recreated/returned and it owned the stable state for animal babies and body and human baby life to live as a holy life.
The teaching of relativity.
So when we all live on a stone body, standing on it. We live inside of the heavenly gas mass....supporting the water mass that we live in oxygenated. Our human life does not own the Noble Gases, they just support water on Earth held. Being the portion of ownership for life....water/oxygen and microbes in water.
Science then says as a scientist life came out of the water. Congratulations scientist, but we did not come out of the sea, life in the sea still lives in that sea.
Life came out of the water, and he does not even rationalise what he says.
Therefore above our heads in the heavens in which humans live......evil occurs in the heavenly war. Burning spirit gases versus, the spatial womb/vacuum voiding the burning, sacrifice of the spirit body owned by God every day.....on the face of the water in the great deep. The same heavens we live in, we just do not live in the sky part.
What science of the occult false preaches about. Human and Nature and animal are already living in Heaven. And it is about time that this realisation is preached to the consensus.
When ICE melts the water evaporated by mass, a huge mass is taken up and used in heated radiation space where science says water boils...to stop the UFO radiation attack/burning destruction of our life.....extra burning, the Satanic act itself, science caused, science owned.
Natural light is never and was never owned in science, the bio Nature owned natural light, not science.
Therefore if you get attacked the ICE melts, the holy body that science said keeps human DNA/genetics healthy and the new born life not destroyed...mutated.
So whenever a newly born baby is born mutated, there is another sacrificed and murdered life, by radiation fall out, water removal. But as ICE melts and puts the ground mass water back, the baby/cell life survives its attack, then gets born to live a life of suffering due to Satanism, science.
How the human discussing SION, fusion into caused fis sion changes attacked life historically.
Science as a male/Father human adult life looked back to a past life on Earth in vision, before dinosaurs became the life living in the Nature Garden from which humans and first animals were evicted.
How do we know this event is real? Archaeological evidence owning human artefacts in coal, and machine parts found inside of stone fusion that evidence. Then is the self evidence, we said we returned to owning the highest form of life with God, that the giant life did not own.
So if you ask science, what mutated our life.....extra radiation did. How did life evolve scientist and return to its natural pre owned form that it previously owned? The extra radiation attack is stopped.
Last night scientist, I was watching a program about how bleeching of the coral is removed and then it heals. When you watch the radiation mass UFO enter the water of the sea, and ICE melts, and under the sea is a lot of natural healthy water, not salted in the sea....then the answer to why coral can return from being heated/blasted in the over salting/heating sea, is due to natural water mass/flow.
In a vision I was also shown that Earth holds a huge natural water mass inside of its tunnel system, that was put there a long time ago, when Earth water got salted by the UFO Sun attack. Natural healthy non salted water went inside of the huge sink holes first.
Therefore science said that the UFO gets sucked out into the vacuum by the oblivion deep pit spatial body, as a science explanation Satanic fall. Where the UFO attack always went. Space took it away.
So science says 0 zero space, takes away the UFO heated in burning gas/heavens away, putting heated radiation back into the cold 0 zero body....where he got the idea from in science. As space owns doing it naturally when you copied it, you caused God the Earth O mass to also put extra heated radiation into space.
Why life was destroyed by your evil meddling as the Revelations of your own preaching to science.
Yet science is artificial, manipulated human male choice against the source of his own planet.
Said, in the past God O being one, stone, a planet owning all natural heavenly spirits/mass around its body created the life of the giants living in the Earth Garden.
Looking back, from his modern day re inherited life, reincarnated he said, human and animal natural life DNA returned/healed, due to one fact of the statement ICE.
Every December he said ICE gets reborn, recreated/returned and it owned the stable state for animal babies and body and human baby life to live as a holy life.
The teaching of relativity.
So when we all live on a stone body, standing on it. We live inside of the heavenly gas mass....supporting the water mass that we live in oxygenated. Our human life does not own the Noble Gases, they just support water on Earth held. Being the portion of ownership for life....water/oxygen and microbes in water.
Science then says as a scientist life came out of the water. Congratulations scientist, but we did not come out of the sea, life in the sea still lives in that sea.
Life came out of the water, and he does not even rationalise what he says.
Therefore above our heads in the heavens in which humans live......evil occurs in the heavenly war. Burning spirit gases versus, the spatial womb/vacuum voiding the burning, sacrifice of the spirit body owned by God every day.....on the face of the water in the great deep. The same heavens we live in, we just do not live in the sky part.
What science of the occult false preaches about. Human and Nature and animal are already living in Heaven. And it is about time that this realisation is preached to the consensus.
When ICE melts the water evaporated by mass, a huge mass is taken up and used in heated radiation space where science says water boils...to stop the UFO radiation attack/burning destruction of our life.....extra burning, the Satanic act itself, science caused, science owned.
Natural light is never and was never owned in science, the bio Nature owned natural light, not science.
Therefore if you get attacked the ICE melts, the holy body that science said keeps human DNA/genetics healthy and the new born life not destroyed...mutated.
So whenever a newly born baby is born mutated, there is another sacrificed and murdered life, by radiation fall out, water removal. But as ICE melts and puts the ground mass water back, the baby/cell life survives its attack, then gets born to live a life of suffering due to Satanism, science.
How the human discussing SION, fusion into caused fis sion changes attacked life historically.
Science as a male/Father human adult life looked back to a past life on Earth in vision, before dinosaurs became the life living in the Nature Garden from which humans and first animals were evicted.
How do we know this event is real? Archaeological evidence owning human artefacts in coal, and machine parts found inside of stone fusion that evidence. Then is the self evidence, we said we returned to owning the highest form of life with God, that the giant life did not own.
So if you ask science, what mutated our life.....extra radiation did. How did life evolve scientist and return to its natural pre owned form that it previously owned? The extra radiation attack is stopped.
Last night scientist, I was watching a program about how bleeching of the coral is removed and then it heals. When you watch the radiation mass UFO enter the water of the sea, and ICE melts, and under the sea is a lot of natural healthy water, not salted in the sea....then the answer to why coral can return from being heated/blasted in the over salting/heating sea, is due to natural water mass/flow.
In a vision I was also shown that Earth holds a huge natural water mass inside of its tunnel system, that was put there a long time ago, when Earth water got salted by the UFO Sun attack. Natural healthy non salted water went inside of the huge sink holes first.
Therefore science said that the UFO gets sucked out into the vacuum by the oblivion deep pit spatial body, as a science explanation Satanic fall. Where the UFO attack always went. Space took it away.
So science says 0 zero space, takes away the UFO heated in burning gas/heavens away, putting heated radiation back into the cold 0 zero body....where he got the idea from in science. As space owns doing it naturally when you copied it, you caused God the Earth O mass to also put extra heated radiation into space.
Why life was destroyed by your evil meddling as the Revelations of your own preaching to science.
Samantha Rinne
Resident Genderfluid Writer/Artist
???
I don't understand the last two posts.
I don't understand the last two posts.