recently married

[CMike]

Mike,

You mean you go to a synagogue that is both reform and chabad? How is that possible?

It's right wing modern reform chabad.

 

[panac4]

It's right wing modern reform chabad.

What will they come up with next?

just curious, how different is the conservative siddur from the traditional siddur? I understand that the Amidah is changed somewhat, removing some of the language about the restoration of temple sacrifices. Also they removed the part about "thank you for not making me a woman, thank you for not making me a gentile." Any other major differences besides alterations to the Amidah? Do conservatives pray three times a day? Does conservative halacha require that?

 

[Levite]

What will they come up with next?

just curious, how different is the conservative siddur from the traditional siddur? I understand that the Amidah is changed somewhat, removing some of the language about the restoration of temple sacrifices. Also they removed the part about "thank you for not making me a woman, thank you for not making me a gentile." Any other major differences besides alterations to the Amidah? Do conservatives pray three times a day? Does conservative halacha require that?

The Conservative movement has not changed the halachic requirements of prayer: they have only added in egalitarianism.

The official Conservative siddurim have some minor changes to the Musaf Amidah, not removing the language about sacrifices entirely, but softening it. And they also include the option of adding the Imahot (the foremothers) to the first brachah, where the Avot (forefathers) are mentioned, as well as making the second brachah ("magen Avraham") into "magen Avraham u'foked Sarah," thus explicitly clarifying that God had revelatory relationships with both the forefathers and the foremothers.

Likewise, the selection of readings from Torah and Rabbinic literature in the Pesukei d'Zimra service about sacrifices (the Korbanot section) does not appear in the Conservative siddur.

There are a few edits and alternations to the Tachanun section of Shacharit and Minchah said on weekdays.

And yes, in the Birkot Hashachar, rather than the traditional brachot "shelo asani eved" ("who did not create me a slave"), "shelo asani goy" ("who did not create me a non-Jew") and "shelo asani ishah" ("who did not create me a woman,") the Conservative liturgy has instead "she-asani ben chorin" ("who made me a free person"), "she-asani Yisrael" ("who made me a Jew") and "she-asani betzalmo" ("who created me in His image").

Keep in mind, the traditional liturgy has gone through many forms and changes over the centuries-- it has never been static. For an excellent history of this, together with some halachic discussion of the history of the laws of prayer and liturgical requirements, see On Changes In Jewish Liturgy, by Rabbi Daniel Sperber, a Modern Orthodox rabbi teaching at Bar-Ilan University.

That said, I confess that while I wholeheartedly approve of the changes to the three relevant brachot in Birkot Hashachar, and of the addition of the Imahot to the Avot brachah in the Amidah, I do not particularly care for the rest of the editorial choices in the Conservative siddur, nor do I find their translation particularly inspiring, although at least it's better than Artscroll.

When I personally daven, I use a traditional Hebrew-only siddur in nussach Sfard (the liturgical variation which fuses elements of the Ashkenazi and Sefardi traditions with that of the ARI z"l-- R. Yitzchak Luria-- preferred in many Chasidic communities, and amongst some Kabbalists), and simply change those three brachot and add in the additions to the first brachah of the Amidah.

 

[panac4]

The Conservative movement has not changed the halachic requirements of prayer: they have only added in egalitarianism.

The official Conservative siddurim have some minor changes to the Musaf Amidah, not removing the language about sacrifices entirely, but softening it. And they also include the option of adding the Imahot (the foremothers) to the first brachah, where the Avot (forefathers) are mentioned, as well as making the second brachah ("magen Avraham") into "magen Avraham u'foked Sarah," thus explicitly clarifying that God had revelatory relationships with both the forefathers and the foremothers.

Likewise, the selection of readings from Torah and Rabbinic literature in the Pesukei d'Zimra service about sacrifices (the Korbanot section) does not appear in the Conservative siddur.

There are a few edits and alternations to the Tachanun section of Shacharit and Minchah said on weekdays.

And yes, in the Birkot Hashachar, rather than the traditional brachot "shelo asani eved" ("who did not create me a slave"), "shelo asani goy" ("who did not create me a non-Jew") and "shelo asani ishah" ("who did not create me a woman,") the Conservative liturgy has instead "she-asani ben chorin" ("who made me a free person"), "she-asani Yisrael" ("who made me a Jew") and "she-asani betzalmo" ("who created me in His image").

Keep in mind, the traditional liturgy has gone through many forms and changes over the centuries-- it has never been static. For an excellent history of this, together with some halachic discussion of the history of the laws of prayer and liturgical requirements, see On Changes In Jewish Liturgy, by Rabbi Daniel Sperber, a Modern Orthodox rabbi teaching at Bar-Ilan University.

That said, I confess that while I wholeheartedly approve of the changes to the three relevant brachot in Birkot Hashachar, and of the addition of the Imahot to the Avot brachah in the Amidah, I do not particularly care for the rest of the editorial choices in the Conservative siddur, nor do I find their translation particularly inspiring, although at least it's better than Artscroll.

When I personally daven, I use a traditional Hebrew-only siddur in nussach Sfard (the liturgical variation which fuses elements of the Ashkenazi and Sefardi traditions with that of the ARI z"l-- R. Yitzchak Luria-- preferred in many Chasidic communities, and amongst some Kabbalists), and simply change those three brachot and add in the additions to the first brachah of the Amidah.

I have experience going to a Modern Orthodox synagogue and used the Nusach Ashkenaz there. I actually kind of like the part about the temple sacrifices, kind of find it interesting. A few years ago my wife and I went to different congregations including reconstructionist, reform, conservative, etc. I really liked the reconstructionist siddur. It had many traditional prayers as well as commentary which was very informative. I also like it when siddurim have a transliteration of the hebrew as I can't keep up with prayers unfortunately.

 

[CMike]

They just about all have translations.

 

[Levite]

I have experience going to a Modern Orthodox synagogue and used the Nusach Ashkenaz there. I actually kind of like the part about the temple sacrifices, kind of find it interesting. A few years ago my wife and I went to different congregations including reconstructionist, reform, conservative, etc. I really liked the reconstructionist siddur. It had many traditional prayers as well as commentary which was very informative. I also like it when siddurim have a transliteration of the hebrew as I can't keep up with prayers unfortunately.

Well there's certainly no reason you can't use whatever siddur you like. I've been to many Conservative minyanim where lots of people brought their own siddurim, of various kinds. Needless to say, also many Orthodox minyanim of that sort, too.

 

[dantech]

Well there's certainly no reason you can't use whatever siddur you like. I've been to many Conservative minyanim where lots of people brought their own siddurim, of various kinds. Needless to say, also many Orthodox minyanim of that sort, too.

In our Synagogue, you won't find two people with the same siddur

 

[CMike]

What will they come up with next?

just curious, how different is the conservative siddur from the traditional siddur? I understand that the Amidah is changed somewhat, removing some of the language about the restoration of temple sacrifices. Also they removed the part about "thank you for not making me a woman, thank you for not making me a gentile." Any other major differences besides alterations to the Amidah? Do conservatives pray three times a day? Does conservative halacha require that?

Some of the posters in this forum are calling reform and conservative "left wing modern orthodox", so I wanted to have some fun at their expense.

Therefore, I go to a right wing modern reform chabad synaggoue.

 

[Levite]

Some of the posters in this forum are calling reform and conservative "left wing modern orthodox"

No one has called either Reform or Conservative "left wing modern Orthodox."

Left-wing Modern Orthodoxy is Orthodox, not Reform or Conservative. It is best represented by the Open Orthodoxy movement, which is centered around Yeshivat Chovevei Torah.

The fact that center-right Orthodoxy chooses to see Open Orthodoxy as insufficiently Orthodox does not change the fact that it is an Orthodox movement. It is not Conservative: it has very distinct halachic, philosophic, and practical differences from Conservative Judaism. And it is in no way Reform, which is distinctively unlike both Conservative and Orthodox Judaism in numerous ways.

 

[panac4]

One of the things that that turns me away from progressive forms of Judaism (conservative and reform) is that it seems too western to me. My family background is from Eastern Europe including Poland, Lithuania, and Romania and I find it hard to identify with forms of Judaism that arose in Germany and other western countries. Does anyone else have this issue or am I just weird? I'll add that most of my ancestors came here either in the early 20th century or after WW2. I think I identify more with that part of my family that came to the U.S. after WW2 and went from being very orthodox to totally secular in a generation.

 

[panac4]

Some of the posters in this forum are calling reform and conservative "left wing modern orthodox", so I wanted to have some fun at their expense.

Therefore, I go to a right wing modern reform chabad synaggoue.

I wonder if the posters say that because reform, conservative, and modern orthodox do have something in common. They are all ways of adapting Judaism to "modern society" that arose after Jews were emancipated in the early 19th century. True, reform, conservative, and modern orthodox can be vastly different in their viewpoints and practices but they all share something in common. They are all innovations that were developed to enable emancipated Jews to remain Jewish while living as citizens in modern western societies.

 

[Levite]

One of the things that that turns me away from progressive forms of Judaism (conservative and reform) is that it seems too western to me. My family background is from Eastern Europe including Poland, Lithuania, and Romania and I find it hard to identify with forms of Judaism that arose in Germany and other western countries. Does anyone else have this issue or am I just weird? I'll add that most of my ancestors came here either in the early 20th century or after WW2. I think I identify more with that part of my family that came to the U.S. after WW2 and went from being very orthodox to totally secular in a generation.

I dunno, it seems to me that where certain thinkers lived is less important than what they said. And by extension, one's personal choices in terms of Jewish belief and practice seem like they would be better constructed on evaluation of the content of different theological, philosophical, halachic, and spiritual works, rather than on where or when they came from.

That's one of the reasons that, though I am nominally a Conservative Jew-- and am certainly a Conservative rabbi-- I don't trouble too much about movements and such. I think less in terms of movements, and more in terms of halachah and philosophy and ritual practice, and what seems just or reasonable. So I draw a lot on my Modern Orthodox upbringing; I draw on halachic works and customs by Ashkenazim, Sefardim, and Mizrachim all alike; I draw a little from classical Jewish philosophy, and a lot from Kabbalah; I've even been known to draw on the occasional Reform thinker.

In the end, movements are just labels, just shorthand ways for what were originally groups of like-minded Jews to form communities with one another, and now largely mean little. Don't worry so much about which movement, or where they came from, or whatnot: just learn Torah, read scholarship, develop your practice of mitzvot, and focus on living your Jewish life.

 

[CMike]

I wonder if the posters say that because reform, conservative, and modern orthodox do have something in common. They are all ways of adapting Judaism to "modern society" that arose after Jews were emancipated in the early 19th century. True, reform, conservative, and modern orthodox can be vastly different in their viewpoints and practices but they all share something in common. They are all innovations that were developed to enable emancipated Jews to remain Jewish while living as citizens in modern western societies.

I don't think religion is about innovation.

Jewish law and principles don't change.

They may adapt as technology and such changes.

I think the reason jews are around now is because they stuck to their traditions rather than assimilate into changing society.

 

[Akivah]

True, reform, conservative, and modern orthodox can be vastly different in their viewpoints and practices but they all share something in common.

What I have found, is that no matter where I've attended synagogue or what demonination they were, I've always been warmly welcomed.