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recently married

panac4

New Member
Hi,

I recently got married by a conservative rabbi. Neither my wife nor I were raised in the conservative movement. My wife was raised Reform and I have a secular Jewish background. The only personal experience i have with Judaism is with orthodoxy. I came across this forum trying to learn more about conservative Judaism online as I am considering becoming observant within the conservative movement. I am curious how conservative Jews on this forum or in general observe kashrut and shabbat. I am wondering what the level of observance is. What is expected? What is allowed? For example, are conservative Jews required to use separate dishes or is that optional? Are conservative Jews allowed to use electricity on Shabbat or is that optional?
 

Tarheeler

Argumentative Curmudgeon
Premium Member
Mazel tov on your wedding and welcome to RF!

Conservative Jews are expected to observe all aspects of Jewish law in their lives; they are expected to keep kosher and to be shomer Shabbat. The difference is in the rulings and method of determining what that means by Conservative rabbis verses Orthodox rabbis.
 
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panac4

New Member
Mazel tov on your wedding and welcome to RF!

Conservative Jews are expected to observe all aspects of Jewish law in their lives; they are expected to keep kosher and to be shomer Shabbat. The difference is in the rulings and method of determining what that means by Conservative rabbis verses Orthodox rabbis.

As a conservative Jew, how does one determine what is permitted and not permitted in terms of kashrut and shabbat observance? For example, electricity on shabbat. Do some conservative Jews consider it ok and others not? Can one come to any halachic conclusion or are there limits to what is halachically allowed. For example, could a conservative Jew say "in my opinion halacha does not forbid eating pork" even if the conservative movement has never authorized eating pork? That is how Reform works, imo, it is up to the individual's conscience.
 

Tarheeler

Argumentative Curmudgeon
Premium Member
As a conservative Jew, how does one determine what is permitted and not permitted in terms of kashrut and shabbat observance? For example, electricity on shabbat. Do some conservative Jews consider it ok and others not? Can one come to any halachic conclusion or are there limits to what is halachically allowed. For example, could a conservative Jew say "in my opinion halacha does not forbid eating pork" even if the conservative movement has never authorized eating pork? That is how Reform works, imo, it is up to the individual's conscience.

He asks his rabbi and reads the responsa published by the Conservative Movement's Rabbinical Assembly. The idea of choosing what to follow and what to disregard is a Reform position, not a Conservative one. The Conservative Movement is based in halakhah and maintains that it is binding on all Jews.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
As a conservative Jew, how does one determine what is permitted and not permitted in terms of kashrut and shabbat observance? For example, electricity on shabbat. Do some conservative Jews consider it ok and others not? Can one come to any halachic conclusion or are there limits to what is halachically allowed. ...

First of all, mazel tov on your wedding!

Halachah is not based on personal opinion. It's based on the laws of the Torah as explained by the Rabbis of the Talmud, refined through the precedents of rabbis ever since.

Among the various rules of halachah are principles for the preservation of multiple viewpoints and differing interpretation. Therefore, though the Conservative movement is halachic and embracing of tradition, it also provides space for different schools of observance.

So, for example, the majority of Conservative Jews follow the interpretation that electricity use is permitted on Shabbat, because electricity is not, halachically, "fire," nor is the completion of a circuit considered to be "finishing" or "making." However, a minority of Conservative Jews do not use electricity on Shabbat, because they follow the reasoning that electricity is "fire," the completion of a circuit is to be considered "finishing" or "making." And both interpretations are respected.

Likewise, for example, many Conservative Jews will eat dairy or kosher fish cooked in non-kosher restaurants; some will eat dairy but not fish in non-kosher restaurants; and some will not eat any cooked foods in non-kosher restaurants. Many Conservative Jews have two separate sets of dishes for meat and dairy; some have only one set of glass dishes, since glass is halachically considered not to absorb the essences of foods. All of these schools of observance have halachic reasoning behind them, and all are accepted as potentially valid.

To learn what is and is not permissible halachically in the Conservative movement, one can study with Conservative rabbis, read manuals of observance, and/or read the halachic responsa written by Conservative rabbis or endorsed by the Rabbinical Assembly's Committee on Jewish Law and Standards. But all of these things are built on the structure of traditional observance, so it is best to simply learn traditional sources first, and refine that learning with further investigation of how Conservative rabbis have interpreted, reinterpreted, or innovated in matters of halachah.
 
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panac4

New Member
Thanks for all of your responses, that was very helpful. I'm actually kind of unsure whether I agree more with orthodox or conservative Judaism. While I don't know that much about it, I am fascinated by halacha and would only want to join a stream of Judaism that was halachic. My main issue is whether orthodox Judaism or conservative Judaism is more true to the halachic system, which is more authentic. On the one hand, it could be argued that orthodox Judaism is more authentic because it adheres to long held halachic rulings regardless of whether they are inconvenient or against modern sensibilities. In this vain it could be argued that conservative Judaism comes to halachic conclusions to fit the wants and needs of Jews living in modern society. On the other hand, it could also be argued that authentic halacha should take into account changing social circumstances. The question I am trying to ask is, which stream of Judaism is more authentic in terms of halacha?
 

RabbiO

הרב יונה בן זכריה
Thanks for all of your responses, that was very helpful. I'm actually kind of unsure whether I agree more with orthodox or conservative Judaism. While I don't know that much about it, I am fascinated by halacha and would only want to join a stream of Judaism that was halachic.....

The question I am trying to ask is, which stream of Judaism is more authentic in terms of halacha?

That depends upon you whom you ask. If you ask CMike or Tumah you're going to get a different answer than you will get from Levite. You'll get a different from Levite than you'll get from....

Peter
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
Thanks for all of your responses, that was very helpful. I'm actually kind of unsure whether I agree more with orthodox or conservative Judaism. While I don't know that much about it, I am fascinated by halacha and would only want to join a stream of Judaism that was halachic. My main issue is whether orthodox Judaism or conservative Judaism is more true to the halachic system, which is more authentic. On the one hand, it could be argued that orthodox Judaism is more authentic because it adheres to long held halachic rulings regardless of whether they are inconvenient or against modern sensibilities. In this vain it could be argued that conservative Judaism comes to halachic conclusions to fit the wants and needs of Jews living in modern society. On the other hand, it could also be argued that authentic halacha should take into account changing social circumstances. The question I am trying to ask is, which stream of Judaism is more authentic in terms of halacha?
I'm not sure how you define "authentic".

Orthodox judaism or right wing modern reform has the same halachic principles from the time of Mt. Sinai.

I think it's impotant to note that there is a great sense of community in orthodox judaism. Because many orthodox jews walk to shul they are part of the same community and they stick together and watch each other's back.

Conservative/Reform is more "stylish" and left wing oriented.

However, I feel what makes judaism different and why we are still around is because we keep the same traditions and customs from Moses until now.

Far more importantly orthodox has much better food at the kiddush.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
Thanks for all of your responses, that was very helpful. I'm actually kind of unsure whether I agree more with orthodox or conservative Judaism. While I don't know that much about it, I am fascinated by halacha and would only want to join a stream of Judaism that was halachic. My main issue is whether orthodox Judaism or conservative Judaism is more true to the halachic system, which is more authentic. On the one hand, it could be argued that orthodox Judaism is more authentic because it adheres to long held halachic rulings regardless of whether they are inconvenient or against modern sensibilities. In this vain it could be argued that conservative Judaism comes to halachic conclusions to fit the wants and needs of Jews living in modern society. On the other hand, it could also be argued that authentic halacha should take into account changing social circumstances. The question I am trying to ask is, which stream of Judaism is more authentic in terms of halacha?

I tend not to think it's a helpful thing to try and play the authenticity game. Everyone claims authenticity.

Between Orthodoxy and Conservative Judaism, the question IMO is not which is/isn't authentic, the question is, how does the approach to halachah resonate with you, and how does the rest of the philosophy resonate with you, and what do you want your lifestyle to look like.

To be an observant Conservative Jew is to have an investment in thinking about halachic issues, looking at different responses to those issues, and making thoughtful choices about what speaks to the way you envision halachic observance. In that sense, it can be harder than being Orthodox, where the halachic answers are often-- sometimes quite literally-- much more black and white.

Orthodoxy today essentially seeks to keep halachah as static as possible, since they believe in a halachah essentially unchanging in any significant fashion since Sinai-- or at least since the time of the Rabbis of the Talmud-- and since they believe that the authority of rabbis to make halachah diminishes with every generation removed from Sinai. Their responses to halachic questions are therefore formulated to resist change, to preserve what they feel is a static past, drawing on the codes and rabbinic responsa of previous generations as fixed or even immutable laws that are difficult, if not impossible, to set aside or replace.

Conservative Judaism sees halachah as having always been evolving. It sees the Oral Torah given at Sinai not as a set of specific or concrete laws, but as a set of exegetical methodologies and legal principles, combined with the authority to interpret the Written Torah, which has passed to every rabbi in every generation-- though certain methodological tools and powers are locked (inaccessible, unusable) since the time of the Talmud and the ending of the Sanhedrin. Their responses to halachic questions, are therefore formulated to shape the inevitable evolution of halachah in order to keep it within the frameworks of Rabbinic Judaism, according to the methodological tools the Rabbis set forth in their expounding of the Oral Torah. Codes and rabbinic responsa of previous generations are treated as precedents to guide and shape the responsa of our generation and future generations-- weighty and extraordinarily significant precedents-- but not as fixed or immutable laws.

Both of these views of halachah-- the Orthodox and the Conservative-- have classical sources upon which they rely: teachings from the Talmud and the Gaonim, opinions of the Rishonim (rabbis of the Middle Ages) and Acharonim (rabbis since the Middle Ages). They are simply two different ways of looking at the same thing, two different ways of understanding halachah and treating it.

So the question is less which is authentic, and more what way of looking at halachah-- and by extension, all the issues in our lives with which halachah interacts-- resonates with you.
 

panac4

New Member
I tend not to think it's a helpful thing to try and play the authenticity game. Everyone claims authenticity.

Between Orthodoxy and Conservative Judaism, the question IMO is not which is/isn't authentic, the question is, how does the approach to halachah resonate with you, and how does the rest of the philosophy resonate with you, and what do you want your lifestyle to look like.

To be an observant Conservative Jew is to have an investment in thinking about halachic issues, looking at different responses to those issues, and making thoughtful choices about what speaks to the way you envision halachic observance. In that sense, it can be harder than being Orthodox, where the halachic answers are often-- sometimes quite literally-- much more black and white.

Orthodoxy today essentially seeks to keep halachah as static as possible, since they believe in a halachah essentially unchanging in any significant fashion since Sinai-- or at least since the time of the Rabbis of the Talmud-- and since they believe that the authority of rabbis to make halachah diminishes with every generation removed from Sinai. Their responses to halachic questions are therefore formulated to resist change, to preserve what they feel is a static past, drawing on the codes and rabbinic responsa of previous generations as fixed or even immutable laws that are difficult, if not impossible, to set aside or replace.

Conservative Judaism sees halachah as having always been evolving. It sees the Oral Torah given at Sinai not as a set of specific or concrete laws, but as a set of exegetical methodologies and legal principles, combined with the authority to interpret the Written Torah, which has passed to every rabbi in every generation-- though certain methodological tools and powers are locked (inaccessible, unusable) since the time of the Talmud and the ending of the Sanhedrin. Their responses to halachic questions, are therefore formulated to shape the inevitable evolution of halachah in order to keep it within the frameworks of Rabbinic Judaism, according to the methodological tools the Rabbis set forth in their expounding of the Oral Torah. Codes and rabbinic responsa of previous generations are treated as precedents to guide and shape the responsa of our generation and future generations-- weighty and extraordinarily significant precedents-- but not as fixed or immutable laws.

Both of these views of halachah-- the Orthodox and the Conservative-- have classical sources upon which they rely: teachings from the Talmud and the Gaonim, opinions of the Rishonim (rabbis of the Middle Ages) and Acharonim (rabbis since the Middle Ages). They are simply two different ways of looking at the same thing, two different ways of understanding halachah and treating it.

So the question is less which is authentic, and more what way of looking at halachah-- and by extension, all the issues in our lives with which halachah interacts-- resonates with you.

Levite,

Thank for your response. I have read a few of your posts on the forum and I really appreciate the depth of knowledge and understanding you bring to the conversation. I am kind of on the fence between conservative judaism and orthodoxy. I feel a desire to become observant but I am unsure which way to go. In some ways i find orthodoxy more attractive because I kind of shudder at the idea of altering core beliefs and practices of Judaism. Isn't that kind of a slippery slope? At the same time, I am not sure I really believe that the orthodox halacha has not chnaged since Mt. Sinai. that seems a little absurd or fantastical. It seems that my beliefs might lean more towards conservatism, but that my view of Jewish practice is more in line with orthodoxy. By the way I don't actually observe Judaism like an orthodox Jew, I am totally secular. However, I like the idea of it and may want to be that way at some point.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
Levite,

Thank for your response. I have read a few of your posts on the forum and I really appreciate the depth of knowledge and understanding you bring to the conversation. I am kind of on the fence between conservative judaism and orthodoxy. I feel a desire to become observant but I am unsure which way to go. In some ways i find orthodoxy more attractive because I kind of shudder at the idea of altering core beliefs and practices of Judaism. Isn't that kind of a slippery slope? At the same time, I am not sure I really believe that the orthodox halacha has not chnaged since Mt. Sinai. that seems a little absurd or fantastical. It seems that my beliefs might lean more towards conservatism, but that my view of Jewish practice is more in line with orthodoxy. By the way I don't actually observe Judaism like an orthodox Jew, I am totally secular. However, I like the idea of it and may want to be that way at some point.

There is nothing that says you can't be Conservative in theology and philosophy and have a nearly Orthodox style of practice. The folks who do are usually informally referred to as Conservadox. Likewise, there are some on the leftmost edge of Open Orthodoxy (itself the leftmost edge of Modern Orthodoxy) whose practice is Orthodox, but whose theology and philosophy is only slightly more Orthodox than Conservative.

You have to decide what kind of life resonates for you, both in terms of the practice and in terms of theology and philosophy. Your theology and philosophy may have some effect on your practice, but they don't necessarily have to. I know some Reform rabbis whose practice is basically Conservadox, though their theology and philosophy is solidly Reform.

As for alteration, everyone who follows halachah understands that halachah needs to be very slow to change, and change should come sparingly. But in the Conservative movement, this is generally understood not as a general principle to refrain from changing altogether, but a principle that when it comes to major changes, we must pick our battles very carefully. This is why most Conservative rabbis oppose too radical a level of change in kashrut, oppose accepting intermarriage, and so on, but they do favor egalitarianism and acceptance of GLBT Jews: they feel that the former two are about essentially transitory experiences related to choices, but the latter two are about the permanent experience of large percentages of all Jews.
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
IMO try a few synagogues and see what you like.

I too don't like changing the core beliefs to be more "fashionable" and "stylish".

What has kept judiasm around all of these thousands of years is jews practicing the same customs and traditions that they have kept for thousands of years.

Where are you from?

Also, don't worry, dont' panac.
 

panac4

New Member
Thanks. In my life I have been to modern orthodox, conservative, reconstructionist, and reform synagogue services. By far the one I liked most was the modern orthodox one. While I could not keep up with the Hebrew prayer and don't totally understand what is going on, I find the ancient liturgy of the orthodox service to be spiritually fulfilling. To me, a liturgy like that is everything that a liturgy should be, profound, mystical, awe inspiring. To me, understanding the prayers is not as important as the meditative or trance like state the chanting and ritual puts me in. I also like the liturgical cycle of traditional Judaism. Entering an island of prayer on the Sabbath from sun down to sun down, there is something very powerful there. That being said, I don't believe for a minute all of the claims of orthodox Judaism. I don't believe that the Torah was literally dictated by Moses or that the Oral Law has been passed down unchanged since Mt. Sinai. I'm not sure where that puts me. Maybe conservadox is the answer I'm looking for. Another possible approach is what I would call the Israeli traditional approach. From what I understand, Israels generally do not practice forms of Judaism other than orthodoxy (with some exceptions). Some of these Isrealis who are spiritually minded but not dogmatic are just traditional. They participate in orthodox rites and customs without subscribing to all of the orthodox beliefs.
 
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Levite

Higher and Higher
Thanks. In my life I have been to modern orthodox, conservative, reconstructionist, and reform synagogue services. By far the one I liked most was the modern orthodox one. While I could not keep up with the Hebrew prayer and don't totally understand what is going on, I find the ancient liturgy of the orthodox service to be spiritually fulfilling. To me, a liturgy like that is everything that a liturgy should be, profound, mystical, awe inspiring. To me, understanding the prayers is not as important as the meditative or trance like state the chanting and ritual puts me in. I also like the liturgical cycle of traditional Judaism. Entering an island of prayer on the Sabbath from sun down to sun down, there is something very powerful there. That being said, I don't believe for a minute all of the claims of orthodox Judaism. I don't believe that the Torah was literally dictated by Moses or that the Oral Law has been passed down unchanged since Mt. Sinai. I'm not sure where that puts me. Maybe conservadox is the answer I'm looking for. Another possible approach is what I would call the Israeli traditional approach. From what I understand, Israels generally do not practice forms of Judaism other than orthodoxy (with some exceptions). Some of these Isrealis who are spiritually minded but not dogmatic are just traditional. They participate in orthodox rites and customs without subscribing to all of the orthodox beliefs.

FWIW, I also usually go to a Modern Orthodox minyan, when I can get to shul. Where you enjoy davening isn't always a factor of what kind of theology and philosophy you choose to embrace.
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
As I stated I go to a right wing modern reform chabad synagogue, and I enjoy it as well.

I still suggest go to several types and see what you like best.

I also suggest to go to the one with the best food.
 

panac4

New Member
As I stated I go to a right wing modern reform chabad synagogue, and I enjoy it as well.

I still suggest go to several types and see what you like best.

I also suggest to go to the one with the best food.

Mike,

You mean you go to a synagogue that is both reform and chabad? How is that possible?
 
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