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Rebirth in Christianity

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Omraam, Nov 27, 2005.

  1. Omraam

    Omraam Member

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    As we go through life we come across people who are rich, handsome, intelligent, powerful and successful in every way. And then we see others who are so poor and defenceless that their life is an endless series of failures.

    What is the reason for such differences in their circumstances? Many people are outraged by what they think of as the injustice of fate. If you ask a scientist to explain these inequalities he will say that it is a question of chance.

    And if you ask a priest or a pastor he will tell you that it is the will of God. Some might talk about predestination and grace, but that only adds to the injustice! In any case, to say that "it is the will of God" is almost the same thing as saying that "it is a question of chance".

    If we analyse the priest's answer we are forced to conclude that God gives everything to some and nothing to others. We don't know why; that's just the way it is. But that's not all: it seems that He gets very angry when those to whom He has given nothing good, either in themselves or in their circumstances, turn out to be vicious and stupidand commit crimes.

    He even punishes them! Since God is almighty He could have made all His creatures magnificent, but He didn't. So not only is it His fault if men commit crimes but He then punishes them for their crimes. No wonder so many people have a horror of religion!

    The truth is that there is a very good reason for all the apparent injustices of life, and that is the law of reincarnation. The Church has never realized that, by denying this law, it was portraying the Lord as a monster of cruelty.

    The explanation is simple: at the beginning God gave us everything. But He also gave us freedom, and we have used that freedom to indulge in some very costly experiences. Of course, the Lord sees all this but as He is generous and patient He lets us work things out for ourselves.

    He says, "My poor children are going to suffer and run into trouble, but that doesn't matter: all my love and wealth is there, waiting for them. They have plenty of reincarnations ahead of them in which to learn wisdom."

    In other words, God lets us exercise our freedom, and all the bad things that happen to us happen through our own fault: we have deserved them. And we have also deserved all the good things that happen to us: they are the results of our efforts in previous incarnations.

    Why does the Church put all the blame on God for what happens to us? Perhaps you will object, "The Church doesn't blame God; it has simply suppressed the belief in reincarnation." Yes, but if you think about it, you will see that it amounts to the same thing.

    And it is very serious, because the knowledge about this law of reincarnation is one of the cornerstones of morality. As long as people are unaware of the law of cause and effect which carries over from one incarnation to the next, no amount of preaching or sermonizing will do any good.

    They won't change. And not only will they refuse to change but, seeing themselves as the victims of social injustice, they will rebel against their fate and become more and more jealous and full of hate for those who seem to be more privileged, with the result that their situation will be even more complicated.

    But someone who knows that all the difficulties and hardships of this life are the result of his past transgressions will not only accept them as just but will also make up his mind to work for good so as to enjoy better conditions in his future incarnations

    Omraam
     
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  2. Pah

    Pah Uber all member

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    I have to disagree with the premise that everything comes from god. And I see no reason to believe that re-incarnation has any validity either. I don't know that the population of the world in all it's creatures remains constant - which seems to be a constraint on re-incartnation.
     
  3. Nehustan

    Nehustan Well-Known Member

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    May God, The Source of all Peace be with you, and His Grace and His Blessings.

    I think that this is a fine subject to bring up, and what that may be considered in its whole semiotic beauty.

    It is said in Genesis 1:26-27 it is said

    'And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.'

    If we consider that this was Jahweh, then Adam was made IHVH as it were tetragrammaton: as above so below, as the term is often coined. Crafted as it were from the primordial elements. Subsequently guidance has come to man through the Prophets. When a voice speaks to the prophet Moses it announces 'Ehyeh (or Eheih) Asher Ehyeh' which means “I Am that I Am". When Jeheshuah is questioned by the priesthood he himself replies “I Am that which I Am", surely no coincedence. It is often thought that Jeheshuah is a second Adam, but not a fallen Adam within an infernal Eden, but a second Adam Qadmon inhabiting and attempting to bring the sons of Adam back to their original state. It is interesting that the hebrew letter shin is thought to be representative of the Ruach Elohim, the Spirit of God, the holy spirit if you will, and in fact the semiotic similarity to the descending dove is apparent to all but the blind. The name which is mostly known to the people calling themselves 'Christians' who oft' call the messiach to the hebrews by his greek name, is Jesus. And yet there is deep significance in the Hebrew name Jeseshuah, as it combines the name Jahweh, with the letter shin, as previously stated representative of the Spirit of the Eloah. The name is of such importance that Mary is instructed to name her son with this appellation by the visiting Angel Gabriel. If we consider the name Jahweh with its semiotic associations revealed in Ezekiel and again in the Revelation, then surely Jeheshuah was 'spiritually' crucified in Aegypt, borne/born upon the cross of Jahweh, his rebirth that of the spirit, as is said

    'How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb (natural birth), and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water (natural birth) and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh (natural) is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit (spiritual) is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again' John 3:4-7

    if one considers that man must ascend from the clay of which he is made, flesh if you will, then the symbolic nature of the annointed's name makes clear sense, to unite the clay with the spirit, to be Jeheshuah. Jeheshuah himself says

    'Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.' John 14:17-20

    and this then makes sense that we must be as Jehehsuah, marked with his name, as he said

    'I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me' John 14:6

    And beyond, no one may pass the father, Jahweh and onto the higher truths of Eloah, The God, than by being the pentagrammaton. As the Revelation to Muhammad via the Angel Gabriel recounts of Eloah.

    In the name of The God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful,

    Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth. The Parable of His Light is as if there were a Niche and within it a Lamp: the Lamp enclosed in Glass: the glass as it were a brilliant star: Lit from a blessed Tree, an Olive, neither of the east nor of the west, whose oil is well-nigh luminous, though fire scarce touched it: Light upon Light! Allah doth guide whom He will to His Light: Allah doth set forth Parables for men: and Allah doth know all things. (Lit is such a Light) in houses, which Allah hath permitted to be raised to honour; for the celebration, in them, of His name: In them is He glorified in the mornings and in the evenings, (again and again) 'The Light' Sura 24:35-36

    Surely Jeheshuah was a star, in the house of David, through which the light of The God, Eloah/Allah shone through into the world. As John recounts...

    'the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.' John 1:5




     
  4. Omraam

    Omraam Member

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    Of course! But what I mean to say , to the believers , is that without reincarnation theory nothing about God makes sense .This is more for those who are theists .

    If you dont believe in anything thats good for you. Im sure your doing just fine without God or talk of heaven .
     
  5. James the Persian

    James the Persian Dreptcredincios Crestin

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    Well, I disagree with your premise also and for much the same reasons Pah does, and I am an Orthodox Christian. There is no room in Christianity for the concept of Reincarnation and nor do we believe that God intervenes in every aspect of our lives. It's people that are to blame for the sufferings and inequalities in the world, not God.

    James
     
  6. Omraam

    Omraam Member

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    Did,nt you read what I said before about the contradiction in this way of thinking ? How come people are born blind and helpless , poor and suffering with disease ? Why does your god do this to people if they have never sinned before , never lived ?
     
  7. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    he doesnt , it is inherited inperfection...... romans 5;12
    That is why, just as through one man (Adam)sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned............... God offered us everlasting life in perfection but we did not want it ,the defect is our own

    (Genesis 1:31) After that God saw everything he had made and, look! [it was] very good.... so why blame God for our own doing

    For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God...romans 3;23

    (Job 14:4) Who can produce someone clean out of someone unclean? There is not one

    For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord

    until the ransom sacrifice is fully applied in God’s new order, we will continue to get sick and die.......................................... cant wait for that promise in(Rev. 21:3, 4)

     
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  8. Omraam

    Omraam Member

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    As Ive said before , please understand how beastly you make god out to be .

    I,ll print this again since you cant be bothered going to the top to read it , even though its the original letter ;

    " If you ask a scientist to explain these inequalities he will say that it is a question of chance . And if you ask a priest or a pastor he will tell you that it is the will of God. Some might talk about predestination and grace, but that only adds to the injustice! In any case, to say that "it is the will of God" is almost the same thing as saying the same as an atheist scientist "it is a question of chance".

    If we analyse the priest's answer we are forced to conclude that God gives everything to some and nothing to others. We don't know why; that's just the way it is. But that's not all: it seems that He gets very angry when those to whom He has given nothing good, either in themselves or in their circumstances, turn out to be vicious and stupidand commit crimes.

    He even punishes them! "


    As I,ve said before , stop punting this ridiculous idea of God you have , and upsetting people with these lies . God is not a beast , he is greater than the silly conservative church . Greater!

    These folk must Stop attacking God!
     
  9. Terrywoodenpic

    Terrywoodenpic Oldest Heretic

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    Apart for your saying there is no room for reincarnation in Christianity I agree strongly with the rest.

    As for Reincarnation, I have said elsewhere that I do not think it normal, But neither would I rule it out.
    The reason being that God can decide any future for us, and reincarnation is certainly within his power.

    Terry_____________________________
    Amen! Truly I say to you: Gather in my name. I am with you.
     
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  10. James the Persian

    James the Persian Dreptcredincios Crestin

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    I don't deny that reincarnating us would be within God's power, but that does not mean that there is room in Christianity for a belief in reincarnation. The Scriptures tell us that it is appointed for men to die but once and then be judged. That clearly precludes the idea of rebirth in another body. Unless you believe that God changes His mind from time to time, and Scripture categorically states that He is unchanging, then I don't see how you could possibly hold to both the Scriptures as revealed by God and the idea (even as just a possibility) of reincarnation. God has told us what He will do and reincarnation is not a part of that so this is in no way denying His power to do so had he so chosen.

    James
     
  11. JerryL

    JerryL Well-Known Member

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    Bad scientist. Go to your room and don't come back until you can explain the butterfly effect.
     
  12. Terrywoodenpic

    Terrywoodenpic Oldest Heretic

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    That does not seem to preclude the Judgement being that you shall be reincarnated.
    Unless you believe That God already knows his Judgements.
    Since I believe in free will and repentance, I do not believe God prejudges anyone. so the option remains open.

    Terry______________________________
    Blessed are the gentle, they shall inherit the land
     
  13. Omraam

    Omraam Member

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    Its a matter of perspective . Some of the passages from the bible are clearly absurd without the concept of rebirth in mind .

    Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed. (1 Cor. 15:51)

    Again, it [the kingdom of heaven] will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted his property to them. To one he gave five talents of money, to another two talents, and to another one talent, each according to his ability. (Matt. 25:14-15)

    In anger his master turned him over to the jailers until he should pay back all he owed. This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart. (Matt. 18: 34-35)

    Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me. (Psalm 51:5)

    All who take the sword will perish by the sword. (Matt. 26:52)If any one slays with the sword, with the sword must he be slain. (Rev. 13:10)
     
  14. Nehustan

    Nehustan Well-Known Member

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    Ahh one of my favourite verses in the NT, I like to describe it as the star above a cross. Omraam, take the sephirotic tree consider Kether, Chockmah, Binah, Chesed, and Geburah the five wise virgins, together the pentagrammaton, and Tipareth, Netzach, Hod, Yesod, and Malkuth, the five foolish, together the cross, Surely the wise are above the foolish. Increase you talents

    :162: ​
    :bonk: ​
     
  15. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    it is not the will of God , it is the will of ourselves ,we rejected everlasting life and choose death ,but it is a good job that Jehovah has arranged something so that we can get everlasting life back
    For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord......romans 6;23

    and it is as a free gift that they are being declared righteous by his undeserved kindness through the release by the ransom [paid] by Christ Jesus romans 3;24

    (John 3:16) "For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life

    It is even so written: "The first man Adam became a living soul." The last Adam (Jesus)became a life-giving spirit ....1 corinthians 15;45

    (Jude 21) keep yourselves in God’s love, while YOU are waiting for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ with everlasting life in view

    "I am the way and the truth and the life."—JOHN 14:6

    He that exercises faith in the Son has everlasting life; he that disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him

    Furthermore, there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is not another name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved...acts 4;12

    He that exercises faith in the Son has everlasting life; he that disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him .........john 3;36.......what a loving God Jehovah is to put something in place so we can get everlasting life back again

     
  16. Omraam

    Omraam Member

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    Indeed . The new jerusalem with its 12 gates and a precious stone in each gate.The gates are the 12 signs of the zodiac , working through mans spirit to create a new way of thinking on earth , the twelve precious stones are symbollic also .

    A precious stone is made from hard work , thousands of years of hard work in the ground .

    These pearls are on the gates in the book of revelations , thats to say the chakras of man , as a symbol of spiritual enlightenment through the process of refinement .

    But how many religious zealots know That christ & St John spoke of these things ?

    Not too many I fear , and it is they themselves that prevent christ from returning . They who will not allow humanity to free themselves from the bondage of ridiculous old laws and traditions.

    At this rate , one can hardly imagine the new jerusalem arriving at all !
     
  17. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    New Jerusalem is breathtaking in its beauty

    "Its radiance was like a most precious stone, as a jasper stone shining crystal-clear. It had a great and lofty wall and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names were inscribed which are those of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel. On the east were three gates, and on the north three gates, and on the south three gates, and on the west three gates. The wall of the city also had twelve foundation stones, and on them the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb." (Revelation 21:11b-14)

    On its 12 gates, there are inscribed the names of the 12 tribes of Israel. Therefore, this symbolic city is made up of the 144,000, who were sealed "out of every tribe of the sons of Israel." (Revelation 7:4-8) In harmony with this, the foundation stones have on them the names of the 12 apostles of the Lamb. Yes, New Jerusalem is not the fleshly nation of Israel founded on the 12 sons of Jacob. It is the spiritual Israel, founded on "the apostles and prophets."—Ephesians 2:20

    New Jerusalem is a superbly designed organizational arrangement for accomplishing God’s eternal purpose.

    New Jerusalem, together with the King Jesus Christ, is Jehovah’s Kingdom organization

    Only individuals who have truly been refined and cleansed will finally make up New Jerusalem, and in this way Jehovah builds the city with living building materials that are aglow with the highest excellence of spiritual purity.—Malachi 3:3, 4

     
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