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Reasons the part played by Judas bothers me

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by ideogenous_mover, Aug 23, 2019.

  1. ideogenous_mover

    ideogenous_mover Well-Known Member

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    So in the Matthew it says Judas is cursed by God, and it would be better that he hadn't been born, however in pslams it predicts that Jesus would need a traitor. I think the implications of that are problematic. It seems to describe a person who would be innocent, but was predestined for a sine qua non curse as delivered by God to accomplish an end. Though there are verses stating that 'satan entered Judas,' surely this cannot abrogate him, for satan works for God if we are to be commensurate with the old testament. (though I thought there was a verse somewhere stating that God does not accomplish works through the use of evil) Judas even seems to hint toward a repentant attitude after performing the act which was after all designed for him, whether you argue it was by god or satan, and is still declared as being cursed even though the role was compelled upon him.

    Arguably as well, one wonders why God decided Paul was a better man than Judas? If paul condemned many more to imprisonment or martyrdom than Judas had or might have, then the figure of Paul doesn't have a better standing within the foundation of his nature. Was paul similarly compelled then to act as he had prior to conversion, and was the election to bless him with a converting revelation then to be considered arbitrary?
     
  2. leov

    leov Well-Known Member
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    Mission of Christ in Jesus was over. Jesus was as Greek says, handed over, not betrayed. I do not think that Judas was a bad character. He was maligned , he did what he was destined to do which was blessing to the rest of us. Paul was almost perfect, just mistaken, that why he was chosen, imo.
     
  3. ideogenous_mover

    ideogenous_mover Well-Known Member

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    But then he was cursed forever for having the destiny of playing a completely doomed part in all of this. That should bother you.
     
  4. leov

    leov Well-Known Member
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    did people curse Judas, does Heaven curse?
     
  5. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    I think we forget something about God that is significant in this question.....predestination. Did God predestine Judas to become a traitor, or was it that God's ability to see into the future merely predicted and recorded the event, foreseen long before it took place? God does not predestine things to happen unless he directly intervenes to create an event to fulfill his purpose. The main thing that come to mind is the birth of Jesus Christ and his mission to rescue the human race, plunged into sin and death in the beginning.This was predetermined and so was the Kingdom, led by Christ, that would lead fallen humans back to God.

    Right throughout the Bible, we see God react to something humans or even angels have done. He did not foreordain for these things to happen, but responded when they did, in order for his purpose to be fulfilled. Humans and angels have free will....something he has never taken away from them.

    Why do you say that satan works for God? The fact that God uses satan to test out his free-willed intelligent creation, doesn't mean that he sanctions his actions.

    The verse you are thinking of is probably James 1:13-15...
    "When under trial, let no one say: “I am being tried by God.” For with evil things God cannot be tried, nor does he himself try anyone. 14 But each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire. 15 Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin; in turn sin, when it has been carried out, brings forth death."

    We see in the trials of Job that God permitted the tests that satan brought on him, but only because God was confident that the man's faith was strong enough to withstand them.

    1 Corinthians 10:13...

    "No temptation has come upon you except what is common to men. But God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear, but along with the temptation he will also make the way out so that you may be able to endure it."

    Don't confuse regret with repentance. Judas was not compelled by God to do anything. What he did was out of greed. He had been stealing money from the treasury box that Jesus and his apostles used to buy their necessities.
    That 'satan entered into Judas' simply means that he found a willing dupe.

    Paul's actions as a Pharisee were not wrongly motivated. He was so zealous for God's worship that he saw the Christians as a threat to his beloved Judaism, which he believed at the time to be the only true faith. Only when Jesus paid him a personal visit was he compelled by his own heart to reapply his zeal to the true worship promoted by Jesus, rather than the corrupted form that Judaism had become. After all, Jesus did not come to start a new religion...he came to clean up the old one and lead the "lost sheep" into a new pen...worshipping the same God in a new way, under a new covenant. (Jeremiah 31:31-34)
     
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  6. ideogenous_mover

    ideogenous_mover Well-Known Member

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    It is stated quite clearly that a close friend must betray Jesus to fulfill scripture, and must be cursed. I'm not going to quote to you the many verses that ultimately present that as the salient point, you know where they are. Doesn't it bother you? If it was written in the old testament and quoted in the new, it is a prediction that someone is to be predestined toward the role, and someone had to fill it. How could you possibly see that any other way? You alternatively say something about God writing down what he sees in the future, but then go on to say that we all have free will. I think your opener here seems a bit like your trying to toss me into a big tangle of red herrings... Even if he 'predicted what he saw in the future,' if all the causation was more frozen than an open prophecy would guarantee, it still indicates that some poor mere human must be stripped of his possible neutrality to forcibly play an evil role of some kind.

    If God uses satan to test out his free-willed intelligent creation, then he does sanction what satan does. God says his tests are like that of a crucible, which to me indicates that someone like Job could fail. (but not Job, who needed to win merely for the sake of the story.) It says he will put them into the fire, refine them like silver and test them like gold. How does James wrestle his ideas out of that notion? All of this is sort of a red herring, but I would point out that it shows a contrast to the fate of Judas, who seemed to have an actual fate. My point is that he was never tested in the metaphorical crucible, rather, he was predestined to cause trouble, and we should wonder if that is spiritually ethical.

    Why would the holy band even need to buy anything, Jesus could make bread or clothes or blankets appear in mid-air couldn't he.

    By that logic, zeal of any kind is possibly not wrongly motivated. If Jesus simultaneously paid a visit to every zealous person the earth, wouldn't they then all convert in the same way? Instead, it seems that message must move slowly over the course of thousands of years with Christian missions. But to go back to the comparison with Judas, didn't they both have 'scales' in their eyes? The scales being a metaphor that they should be unknowingly blind to Christianity in order for things to be fulfilled? So in that sense, Paul's actions were never 'motivated' by anything at all, just like the actions of Judas. They were filling predestined parts for the sake of the overall story.
     
    #6 ideogenous_mover, Aug 26, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2019
  7. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    No, Jehovah allows it to happen...it's not yet His time to intervene. It's coming.
     
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  8. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    No human's life is predestined. (as Jesus' was) You don't seem to understand God's ability to transcend time....to see as far into the future as he does the past. He can write history in advance.....like the prophesy on the last days of the present age....everything is happening just as God said it would. He saw the future and had it recorded....we are living it, almost 2,000 years after it was written.

    Free will is the ability to make decisions in the present, based on past experience and to imagine outcomes in the future. We alone possess that ability...its part of being created in God's image. There was nothing "poor" about Judas. He chose his course and he is reprehensible because he was with Jesus and the other apostles for three and a half years, even engaging in miraculous acts performed in Jesus' name. He had the witness of the holy spirit and still he betrayed his Master for 30 lousy pieces of silver. His sin was unforgivable because it was all his own choice to do what he did. His regret could not save him.

    Refining is a process that is designed to bring impurities to the surface so that they may be removed. God does not cause the fire, but allows it to refine us. James does not argue with that.

    Did you never notice that Jesus and his apostles never used the gifts of the spirit on themselves....? It was only used for the benefit of unbelievers. Paul told Timothy to use a little wine for his stomach condition. Paul himself suffered with a "thorn in his flesh" a condition that probably plagued him till he died. So no, there was no bread or blankets or clothing materializing out of nowhere. They bought food and other supplies like everyone else. On the night of his arrest, Jesus had even told his apostles to buy swords.

    Ask the suicide bombers if they are wrongly motivated...? They don't think so.

    Paul was zealous for his God and he showed it. But God knew that the man's heart was in the right place. He would be used in situations where the other apostles could not. He was the only educated apostle, though never one of the 12, but he was a Pharisee and knew the law inside out. His speeches were persuasive as he was brought before officials and rulers. His speech to the philosophers at the A·re·opʹa·gus is recorded at Acts 17:22-31.
    His education and his background, his Roman citizenship and his humble spirit all contributed to a very successful ministry and more contribution to scripture than any other apostle.
     
  9. ideogenous_mover

    ideogenous_mover Well-Known Member

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    And Peter disowned him, yet was forgiven

    You lost me. If he sees into the future, (all the way to the end of time, we might add) then there is no free will, every action is predestined concrete.
     
  10. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    I don’t see any reason to believe it was compelled. Judas did what he did by his own will. It was known in advance, but not compelled.
     
  11. Regiomontanus

    Regiomontanus non est ad astra mollis e terris via

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    Hello. I am glad you pointed this out. The Greek word παραδίδωμι (transliteration: paradidómi) usually means handed over, or delivered. It can mean to betray though.

    I recently heard a scholar posit that Judas handed Jesus over to prevent rioting and possible bloodshed; this was in Jerusalem during Passover which was a volatile time (hence Pilate was in town to keep the lid on things).

    Anyway, I wonder how things would have turned out if Judas did not do it...
     
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  12. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Peter was weak, not wicked......do you understand the difference?
    As a reader of hearts, Jesus obviously did. Peter had an impetuous nature and he was an "all or nothing" kind of character, but when Jesus' words rang in his ears after hearing the rooster crow, he wept over what he had done, because beforehand he had pledged to follow his Master into death if needs be...and here he was protecting his own backside when he was challenged. Peter had a problem with 'fear of man' but he grew up and became the dedicated apostle that Jesus knew he would become.

    He had nothing good to say about Judas....he called him "the son of destruction". (John 17:12; John 13:10-11; Mark 14:21)

    God sees the future but never interferes with free will. Telling you what will happen, doesn't mean that God makes it happen.

    God sometimes reacts to what people do in this world when his purpose is threatened (such as what precipitated the flood of Noah's day for example)....but he does not act against humanity until it is time for the accounting, which we believe is looming. He did not intervene even when his precious son was suffering at the hands of wicked men. He withdrew from him to allow him to die and fulfill his mission.

    He has predicted all that we are experiencing in the world at present and he has already told us the outcome thousands of years in advance. In fact Daniel was given so much information about "the time of the end" but no one understood any of it before then because it was not time for God to reveal it....now he has. (Daniel 12:4; Daniel 12:9-10)

    Daniel said that the wicked would not understand anything, because they refused to be 'cleansed' of their false beliefs and practices. The 'wheat and the weeds' ('the sheep and the goats') are being separated as we speak.
     
  13. ideogenous_mover

    ideogenous_mover Well-Known Member

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    I don't know anymore. You know, last night I read the rest of the book / or letter of James. In it, he said that a lie is technically as bad as a murder in some sense that I didn't quite get, that it doesn't matter what you did, you are still classified as a sinner. (as opposed to someone who is merely wicked or weak) So with that, I think it goes to show that the Bible says a lot of things, and I've had enough of it for a few days. Thanks for the conversation though.

    And Revelation as well, no doubt. Anyway, I'm still sort of lost on all that, but I'm thinking about a possible thread to make to try and sort it out all the free-will business just a little more.
     
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