1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Reason for Jesus Death Explained

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Brickjectivity, May 30, 2019.

  1. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2017
    Messages:
    11,698
    Ratings:
    +5,218
    Religion:
    Baha'i Faith
    True. That is why Rome dealt harshly with anyone making Messianic claims, and the punishment was execution by crucifixtion according to Roman Law.
     
    #121 shunyadragon, Jun 1, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2019
  2. Spartan

    Spartan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2019
    Messages:
    1,807
    Ratings:
    +226
    Religion:
    Christian
    There's a lot more to it than that. The disciples all believed they had seen the risen Jesus. Doubting Thomas changed his mind when he saw the risen Jesus. So did skeptics James and the Apostle Paul (i.e. his 'Road to Damascus" encounter). The resurrection was the central message of the early church. And Paul recounts some 500 individuals who had seen the risen Jesus, some of who were still alive when he wrote that. So the weight of the evidence is against your claim.
     
  3. dmap

    dmap God is good and beautiful

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2018
    Messages:
    1,451
    Ratings:
    +402
    Religion:
    deist monotheist agnostic panentheist
    This is a good example what is wrong with the truth claims of Christianity. The interpretation you present does not match with teachings of mainstream denominations nor with views of the early church fathers. Everybody disagrees with everybody about everything. It is a useless and incoherent system of ideas.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2013
    Messages:
    28,997
    Ratings:
    +12,274
    Religion:
    Catholic-- liberal & ecumenical
    Crucifixion was a Roman form of execution, whereas the Jewish form was stoning. The Romans did not get involved with administering Jewish Law, plus the form of crucifixion used indicates a serious violation of Roman law..
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  5. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2012
    Messages:
    25,548
    Ratings:
    +8,027
    Religion:
    Liberal Christian
    Maybe, maybe not. We're a little off topic, but that's ok since we're on page 6. Nobody reads page 6.

    We're talking about people, and we're talking about multiple generations. Not any system so far has proven fool proof, and we are genetically related to apes. You have a bunch of apes trying to implement a system that restricts us from apelike behavior, because we are a danger to ourselves. Oppression is in our genes, and so in modern times to make the world better we are fighting ourselves. We easily become Marxists -- all or nothing idealists, ready to bloody any nose. Systems just get messed with, and so no system so far remains coherent. Its not just Christianity. Its everything. Everything melts in our hands. Everything is a stick to hit someone else with.

    We have to think on our feet, identify what works and do that. What has worked is pacifism, but nobody wants to be a pacifist. Everybody wants to defend their own stuff, and who can blame them? I think we need to take what we have, start there, oil it and soften it back up. Let Christians have different ideas again and fight against these claims of truth, these apish attempts at control. This is real fundamentalism and a real return to scripture. Let them who claim to be Bible based learn about the freedom that they are supposed to have to agree to disagree and still be in fellowship. Then we get rid of the anger and the hiding of who we are. If somebody goes to church and is hounded into agreeing about some issue that's wrong. If there's a creed, then there is not freedom; and that is how we end up with the problems.

    The early church fathers don't agree with each other, so why am I being singled out? By their wish and design I have access to more information then themselves. They wanted this. I'm living in the future that they dreamed of. I have the gifts that they have left for me and a duty to use those.
     
  6. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2017
    Messages:
    11,698
    Ratings:
    +5,218
    Religion:
    Baha'i Faith
    It is conclusive, but a number of scholars propose the Dead Sea scrolls describe a Messianic figure fifty years before Jesus Christ killed by the Romans named Judah.

    From: Proposing A Messiah Before Jesus

    But even by the standards of this unusually contentious field, two scholars are provoking particular controversy with an unconventional theory: Jesus was no original; he was scooped by an earlier messiah whose words are recorded in the scrolls.

    Working independently, Michael O. Wise, a Christian professor at Northwestern College in St. Paul, Minn., and Israel Knohl, a Jewish professor at Hebrew University in Jerusalem have recently published books arguing that some of the scroll texts were written by a suffering, Jesus-like messiah who lived at least 50 years before Jesus was born.

    The two disagree about who this first messiah was as well as about other particulars. To Mr. Wise, author of ''The First Messiah: Investigating the Savior Before Christ'' (HarperSanFrancisco, 1999), the messiah of the scrolls may have been a man named Judah who died a violent death around 72 B.C. To Mr. Knohl, who wrote ''The Messiah Before Jesus: The Suffering Servant of the Dead Sea Scrolls,'' published by the University of California Press in October, he was most likely an Essene named Menahem who lived a generation later and was killed by Romans during the social upheaval that followed King Herod's death in 4 B.C.
     
  7. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member
    It's My Birthday!

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    10,801
    Ratings:
    +3,305
    Religion:
    Christian
    If you read it in context, the suffering servant is Israel.

    Menahem | king of Israel | Britannica.com
    https://www.britannica.com/biography/Menahem
    Menahem
    : Menahem, king of Israel whose 10-year reign was distinguished for its cruelty. Events of his rule are related in II Kings 15:14–22. In about 746 bc, Shallum ben Jabesh assassinated Zechariah, king of Israel (the northern kingdom of the Jews, as distinguished from the southern kingdom, Judah), and
     
  8. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2017
    Messages:
    11,698
    Ratings:
    +5,218
    Religion:
    Baha'i Faith
    That does not change anything in the discussion. I believe most Christians consider the suffering servant Jesus Christ. Please explain.
     
  9. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member
    It's My Birthday!

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    10,801
    Ratings:
    +3,305
    Religion:
    Christian
    Menahem ben Judah. Menahem ben Judah was one of several Jewish Messiah claimants around the time of the Jewish War and is mentioned by Josephus. He was the leader of a faction called the Sicarii who carried out assassinations of Romans and collaborators in the Holy Land. He was the son of Judas of Galilee and grandson of Hezekiah,...
    Menahem ben Judah - Wikipedia
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menahem_ben_Judah
     
  10. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member
    It's My Birthday!

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    10,801
    Ratings:
    +3,305
    Religion:
    Christian
    Christians hijacked the suffering servant.

    All the way thru Isaiah he refers to Israel as God's servant.
     
  11. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2012
    Messages:
    25,548
    Ratings:
    +8,027
    Religion:
    Liberal Christian
    We are not all hijacking the Suffering Servant. This is yes how some people think things work, but its not really how they work. The mistake many make is to think of themselves as a replacement for Jews, which is totally wrong. We also have Paul saying not to boast against the Jews who are the original branches on the tree. Replacement Theology is hijacking the suffering servant, however that is not really how things work in the NT...on the whole. It does depend on who is in your canon and whether you give Galatians precedence over certain other NT works.
     
  12. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 2012
    Messages:
    16,060
    Ratings:
    +1,777
    Not the risen Jesus, but they saw same Jesus after treatment in the tomb of Arimathea as before with the wounds still there on his body to show to Thomas the Didymus while others also witnessed. This is very much in the Pauline-Pagan Bible. Right, please.

    Regards
     
  13. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2017
    Messages:
    11,698
    Ratings:
    +5,218
    Religion:
    Baha'i Faith
    Actually I agree, but I am not sure that his fits the question of why the Romans executed Jesus Christ by crucifixtion.
     
  14. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member
    It's My Birthday!

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    10,801
    Ratings:
    +3,305
    Religion:
    Christian
    Probably doesn't, but there are other considerations. The Jerusalemites were a miserable lot .. very unhappy about the Hellenized Jews of the more prosperous north (Israel) and equally unhappy about the Jews of Jerusalem who wanted to maintain the status quo with Rome. Ultimately those penurious hardheads brought the whole thing down.
     
  15. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2017
    Messages:
    11,698
    Ratings:
    +5,218
    Religion:
    Baha'i Faith
    I believe they were more unhappy with the domination by Rome.
     
  16. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member
    It's My Birthday!

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    10,801
    Ratings:
    +3,305
    Religion:
    Christian
    You know that things got real bad.. Lots of Jews left Jerusalem before the destruction of the temple.

    In Revelation 14 as in Isaiah 5:7, Israel is symbolized as a vineyard; and as is the case in Lamentations 1:15, the slaughter of the Israelites is represented as grapes being crushed in a winepress. Jerusalem and the Temple was destroyed in August at the time of the grape harvest 70 AD.
     
  17. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2017
    Messages:
    2,166
    Ratings:
    +294
    Religion:
    Iglesia Ni Cristo (Church of Christ)
    And Roman Justice is infallible and perfect?
    When the Roman magistrate like Pontius Pilate who is also the governor says a man is guilty, he is?
    When the method of execution is crucifixion is imposed, a man is really guilty as charged?

    [​IMG][​IMG]

    Sure crucifixion in Roman Times is one of the methods. Burning alive was another favored form of execution, but perhaps the most shameful way to be executed for a Roman was to be crucified. Again, you would not suffer this punishment if you were a Roman citizen, which is why Apostle Paul was beheaded and Apostle Peter was crucified.

    But going back to Pontius Pilate did he erred in his judgement?
    Did Pontius Pilate exercise perfect judgement?
    [​IMG]
    Let us look for answers in the bible not from anyone's personal opinion.

    John 19:1-18; John 18:37-40 New International Version (NIV)

    “You are a king, then!” said Pilate.

    Jesus answered, “You say that I am a king. In fact, the reason I was born and came into the world is to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me.”

    “What is truth?” retorted Pilate. With this he went out again to the Jews gathered there and said, “I find no basis for a charge against him. But it is your custom for me to release to you one prisoner at the time of the Passover. Do you want me to release ‘the king of the Jews’?”

    They shouted back, “No, not him! Give us Barabbas!” Now Barabbas had taken part in an uprising.

    Then Pilate took Jesus and had him flogged. The soldiers twisted together a crown of thorns and put it on his head. They clothed him in a purple robe and went up to him again and again, saying, “Hail, king of the Jews!” And they slapped him in the face.

    Once more Pilate came out and said to the Jews gathered there, “Look, I am bringing him out to you to let you know that I find no basis for a charge against him.” When Jesus came out wearing the crown of thorns and the purple robe, Pilate said to them, “Here is the man!”

    As soon as the chief priests and their officials saw him, they shouted, “Crucify! Crucify!”

    But Pilate answered, “You take him and crucify him. As for me, I find no basis for a charge against him.”

    The Jewish leaders insisted, “We have a law, and according to that law he must die, because he claimed to be the Son of God.”

    When Pilate heard this, he was even more afraid, and he went back inside the palace. “Where do you come from?” he asked Jesus, but Jesus gave him no answer. “Do you refuse to speak to me?” Pilate said. “Don’t you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you?”

    Jesus answered, “You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin.”

    From then on, Pilate tried to set Jesus free, but the Jewish leaders kept shouting, “If you let this man go, you are no friend of Caesar. Anyone who claims to be a king opposes Caesar.”

    When Pilate heard this, he brought Jesus out and sat down on the judge’s seat at a place known as the Stone Pavement (which in Aramaic is Gabbatha). It was the day of Preparation of the Passover; it was about noon.

    “Here is your king,” Pilate said to the Jews.

    But they shouted, “Take him away! Take him away! Crucify him!”

    “Shall I crucify your king?” Pilate asked.

    “We have no king but Caesar,” the chief priests answered.

    Finally Pilate handed him over to them to be crucified.

    So the soldiers took charge of Jesus. Carrying his own cross, he went out to the place of the Skull (which in Aramaic is called Golgotha). There they crucified him, and with him two others—one on each side and Jesus in the middle.

    [​IMG]
     
    • Like Like x 1
  18. Spartan

    Spartan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2019
    Messages:
    1,807
    Ratings:
    +226
    Religion:
    Christian
    Ah yes, the tired old and discredited "Swoon Theory."

    Sorry, you can believe that but the New Testament tells the real story. Jesus is Risen indeed!
     
  19. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 2012
    Messages:
    16,060
    Ratings:
    +1,777
    Jesus lived 2000+ years ago, so every narration is old. Is one's weird, mythical and pagan-Pauline narration a new one, please?

    Regards
     
  20. Spartan

    Spartan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2019
    Messages:
    1,807
    Ratings:
    +226
    Religion:
    Christian
    You should trade in your pessimism for some real history:

    "The Historical Jesus," by scholar Dr. Gary Habermas;
    "The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus," by Dr. Gary Habermas.

    Those are purposefully not on your reading list, are they? Which is why you have the myopic views that you do.
     
Loading...