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Featured Reason for Jesus Death Explained

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Brickjectivity, May 30, 2019.

  1. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    It seems one Muslim is enjoying the thread! I hope everybody else is, too. Looks like its slowing down though. Page 5. Wow mine never last that long.
     
  2. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]

    Treason against Rome?!
    Said who?!
    Have you seen the rap sheet?
    The one written in English?

    upload_2019-6-1_6-22-14.jpeg

    Matthew 27:19 New International Version (NIV)
    While Pilate was sitting on the judge’s seat, his wife sent him this message: “Don’t have anything to do with that innocent man, for I have suffered a great deal today in a dream because of him.”

    - even Pilate's wife dreamt about Jesus and tried to peddle for Jesus' aquital

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    Mark 15:14 New International Version (NIV)
    “Why? What crime has he committed?” asked Pilate.

    But they shouted all the louder, “Crucify him!”

    - Even Pilate asked them what crime has he committed. Did the Jews replied treason? They shouted "Crucify him!"

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    Matthew 27:24 New International Version (NIV)

    When Pilate saw that he was getting nowhere, but that instead an uproar was starting, he took water and washed his hands in front of the crowd. “I am innocent of this man’s blood,” he said. “It is your responsibility!”

    - What did Pilate do in the end? He performed the ceremonial washing of the hands. He was under duress. The Jews got their conviction. Capital punishment was imposed on an innocent man.



    Matthew 26:55-67 New International Version (NIV)
    In that hour Jesus said to the crowd, “Am I leading a rebellion, that you have come out with swords and clubs to capture me? Every day I sat in the temple courts teaching, and you did not arrest me. But this has all taken place that the writings of the prophets might be fulfilled.” Then all the disciples deserted him and fled.

    Those who had arrested Jesus took him to Caiaphas the high priest, where the teachers of the law and the elders had assembled. But Peter followed him at a distance, right up to the courtyard of the high priest. He entered and sat down with the guards to see the outcome.

    The chief priests and the whole Sanhedrin were looking for false evidence against Jesus so that they could put him to death. But they did not find any, though many false witnesses came forward.

    Finally two came forward and declared, “This fellow said, ‘I am able to destroy the temple of God and rebuild it in three days.’”

    Then the high priest stood up and said to Jesus, “Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?” But Jesus remained silent.

    The high priest said to him, “I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Messiah, the Son of God.”

    “You have said so,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

    Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, “He has spoken blasphemy! Why do we need any more witnesses? Look, now you have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?”

    “He is worthy of death,” they answered.

    Then they spit in his face and struck him with their fists. Others slapped him

    upload_2019-6-1_6-46-33.jpeg

    So what was the charge?
    According to these strippers, it was blasphemy.
    With false evidence and false witnesses

    I do not base my conclusions on conjectures but what is written in the Bible.
    I do not like to go beyond the Scriptures because one lie leads to another.
    I believe Jesus Christ was not put to death because of treason for the following reasons
    1. Pilate did not find a basis to put him to death - not even Treason
    2. Pilate's wife tried to influence his husband for Jesus' acquittal and told him that Jesus was an innocent man.
    3. The ignoramus crowd kept on clamoring for Jesus' crucifixion and with that Pilate was swayed to do the crowd's demand for blood. He was the governor and would want to appease the crowd and the Pharisees et. al.
    4. Jesus did not acknowledge he is the king of the Jews but the Son of Man, the Messiah, the titles which are not tantamount to rebellion or sedition. Messiah means anointed one.
    5. Jesus kept on saying - “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.”
    Sorry, I don't see Jesus culpable of any charge but the charge imposed by the Pharisees based on their whims and caprices.
     
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  3. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    Please read Matthew 27 or Mark 15 or Luke 23 or even John 19
    Those chapters depicts Christ suffering on the cross.

    With regards to Pilate's wife.....

    Matthew 27:19 New International Version (NIV)
    While Pilate was sitting on the judge’s seat, his wife sent him this message: “Don’t have anything to do with that innocent man, for I have suffered a great deal today in a dream because of him.”

    ....but the gospel does not end there.

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    Mark 15:39-45 New International Version (NIV)
    And when the centurion, who stood there in front of Jesus, saw how he died, he said, “Surely this man was the Son of God!”

    Some women were watching from a distance. Among them were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joseph, and Salome. In Galilee these women had followed him and cared for his needs. Many other women who had come up with him to Jerusalem were also there.

    It was Preparation Day (that is, the day before the Sabbath). So as evening approached, Joseph of Arimathea, a prominent member of the Council, who was himself waiting for the kingdom of God, went boldly to Pilate and asked for Jesus’ body. Pilate was surprised to hear that he was already dead. Summoning the centurion, he asked him if Jesus had already died. When he learned from the centurion that it was so, he gave the body to Joseph.
     
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  4. Spartan

    Spartan Well-Known Member

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    Those kinds of theories are a dime a dozen. There's just no evidence to support them.

    If Jesus lives, where is his tomb? Certainly it would have been venerated. And what of his disciples, etc.? They're all liars? And those who died rather than deny his resurrection?

    Gotta get a better theory.
     
  5. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Jesus went out of Judea and the Roman Empire secretly so that he was not caught again . So look other places of the world for his tomb.

    Regards
     
  6. Spartan

    Spartan Well-Known Member

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    What's your original source for that claim?
     
  7. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    The empty tomb is one clue that Jesus secretly moved out from the tomb. If one find and empty tomb of one's dear ones what would one think, please?

    Regards
     
  8. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member
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    I agree. Rome had no interest in Jesus. They just wanted the Jews to behave and pay their taxes.
     
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  9. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member
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    A little perspective is needed.

    [​IMG]
     
  10. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    The reason why Rome eventually broke up and imploded.
     
  11. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member
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    I don't think Rome gave a fig about Jesus or his ministry around Galilee and the Decapolis. He avoided the Pharisees working in the north. .. and neither Antipas nor Agrippa seemed to have been concerned about him.
     
  12. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    I disagree, because of the historical record of how Rome dealt with those that claimed to be Messiahs and incited rebellion against Rome. It is likely that they were not particularly threatened by Jesus Christ, because no apparent army raised, but nonetheless Rome was ruthless against all who made the claim regardless.
     
  13. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member
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    Jesus didn't incite rebellion if you believe the Sermon on the Mount.

    What other messiahs did Rome deal with?
     
  14. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    The sermon on the Mount is not all that Jesus Christ taught. It is claim to be the Messiah, and the fulfilment of prophesy that was in opposition of Roman rule and law.

    Response will follow . . .

    Check out the writings of Josephus.
     
  15. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member
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    Story: The Roman general Vespasian, who attacked the Jews, may seem an odd candidate for a Messiah, but nonetheless, his coup d'état in 70 was regarded as the fulfillment of the famous Balaam prophecy that

    a star shall come out of Jacob and a scepter will rise out of Israel. It shall crush the foreheads of Moab and break down all the sons of Sheth. Edom shall be dispossessed.note
    There were two comet. One appeared in late 64,{{Tacitus, Annals, 15.47.}} the other, in 69, is mentioned by Cassius Dio.note Most people thought that the new ruler would be the liberator of Israel, but Flavius Josephus claims to have found the true meaning of the prophecy.

    Vespasian - Livius
     
  16. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    This reference is one I found is the most comprehensive, and gives details concerning the time of Jesus Christ.

    From: PSEUDO-MESSIAHS - JewishEncyclopedia.com

    Two Messiahs.

    Persons who claim to be the deliverers of Israel divinely appointed to bring about the establishment of the promised Messianic kingdom. Some of the pseudo-Messiahs who have arisen at various epochs were impostors seeking to exploit the credulity of the masses for selfish purposes; others, victims of their own beliefs or delusions. All of them had as their goal the restoration of Israel to its native land. Some sought to accomplish this through penitence, fasting, and prayer, and looked forward to miracles to assist them; others appealed to arms. In connection with their Messianic rôle, some enacted the part of religious reformers, introducing innovations and even trying to subvert the existing Judaism. As there existed a belief in two Messiahs—an Ephraitic Messiah, who would be the forerunner of the Davidic Messiah—there appear among the pseudo-Messiahs both those who claim to be the Messiah of the house of David and those who pretend to be the Messiah, son of Joseph. Their influence was mostly local and temporary; some, however, succeeded in attracting large numbers of followers, and created movements that lasted for considerable periods. The effects of these Messianic movements were pernicious. Many of these Messiahs and their followers lost their lives in the course of their activities; and they deluded the people with false hopes, created dissensions, gave rise to sects, and even lost many to Judaism.

    The pseudo-Messiahs begin to appear with the end of the Hasmonean dynasty, when Rome commenced its work of crushing the independence of Judea. For the maintenance of the endangered state the people looked forward to a Messiah.
     
  17. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member
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    I think it helps to step back and look at first century Palestine. There were many factions pitted against one another. There were Pharisees and Saducees, Herodians, Zealots, Essenes and Sicarri. The Essenes basically withdrew to the area around the Dead Sea.

    The Hellenized Jews of the north were perceived as apostates.. so were the Jews who colluded with Rome and wanted to maintain the status quo. The love affair between Herod's granddaughter, Queen Berneice, and Titus is used to drive home the narrative about Israel being the Whore of Babylon.
     
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  18. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member
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    The Hasmodean dynasty comes a bit later.

    Hasmonean dynasty - Wikipedia
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasmonean_dynasty
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    Overview
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    The Hasmonean dynasty ( (audio); Hebrew: חַשְׁמוֹנַּאִים, Ḥashmona'im) was a ruling dynasty of Judea and surrounding regions during classical antiquity. Between c. 140 and c. 116 BCE the dynasty ruled Judea semi-autonomously from the Seleucids. From 110 BCE, with the Seleucid Empire disintegrating, the dynasty became fully independent, expanded into the neighbouring regions of Samaria, Galilee, Iturea, Perea, and Idumea, and took the title "basileus". Some modern scholars refer to this period as an independent kingdom of Israel.


    They were descended from the Maccabees …. Remember the prophesy of 165 BC when Antiochus IV forbid circumcision and put the Abomination of Desolation in the Temple.
     
  19. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    So what?!?!?!?!?! Does not address the facts of my reference of the fact that there were a number of Messianic figures over the period the Jesus Christ made his claim..
     
  20. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member
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    Rome tried to restore order at first.. The Jews were warring against each other.
     
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