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Featured Reason for Jesus Death Explained

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Brickjectivity, May 30, 2019.

  1. Spartan

    Spartan Well-Known Member

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    Yes, he was tempted but he didn't sin. Hebrews chapter 4 confirms it: "We have a high priest who was tempted in every point like we are, yet without sin."

    It's not poorly defined. Here's a parable by Jesus that explains it all better: The Parable of the Wedding Feast -

    "Isaiah 61:10, I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.

    Note that in Genesis 15:6, this righteousness comes through faith in God: Abram believed (had faith in) the Lord, and it was credited to him as righteousness. Also note Ephesians 2:8-9 in the New Testament.

    Believers are covered with God’s garment of righteousness / salvation. When God looks at the repentant sinner He does not see the filthy attire of sin anymore, but the robe of righteousness obtained by faith in Christ’s perfect obedience to the law. There are none righteous apart from this God-given righteousness.

    A perfect example that this righteousness is not obtained by man’s own inherent “goodness” is found in Zechariah chapter 3:

    3 Now Joshua was dressed in filthy clothes as he stood before the angel. 4 The angel said to those who were standing before him, “Take off his filthy clothes.” Then he said to Joshua, “See, I have taken away your sin, and I will put rich garments on you.”

    Filthy clothes = sin in the above scripture, while a robe of righteousness = a garment of salvation / righteousness (Isaiah 61:10)."

    The Parable of the Wedding Feast
     
  2. Spartan

    Spartan Well-Known Member

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    Many do. I've seen Christians cleaning up vomit in homeless shelters helping those who could not support themselves.
     
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  3. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    Selective citations of the NT do not change the fact that Jesus claimed to fulfill the prophecies of the OT and claimed to be the Messiah. The station of the Messiah is the King of the Jews. Your final citation confirms that claim.

    This citation makes that clear. t John 11:51-52 "He did not say this on his own, but as high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the Jewish nation, and not only for that nation but also for the scattered children of God, to bring them together and make them claiming to be King of Jone."

    Claiming to be King of all Jew and Gentile would be and was a double threat to Rome as in rebellion against Rome, and resulted in the crucifiction of Jesus regardless of any other issues.
     
    #63 shunyadragon, May 30, 2019
    Last edited: May 30, 2019
  4. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    The problem we face is the very fallible nature of human in all the cultures and religions throughout the history of humanity. The reality is your expectations will always be disappointed, The question remains what is the universal behind the the diverse conflicting beliefs concerning the 'Source' some call God(s) and others deny God(s) exist throughout the history of humanity. The outlook is not good for any one religion that makes the claim to be the true religion in ancient history.
     
  5. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    Let us see the whole picture by revealing the whole scene of John 11:51-52
    Let us read from 45 to 52, what is this scene?

    [​IMG]

    John 11:45-52 New International Version (NIV)
    Therefore many of the Jews who had come to visit Mary, and had seen what Jesus did, believed in him. But some of them went to the Pharisees and told them what Jesus had done. Then the chief priests and the Pharisees called a meeting of the Sanhedrin.

    “What are we accomplishing?” they asked. “Here is this man performing many signs. If we let him go on like this, everyone will believe in him, and then the Romans will come and take away both our temple and our nation.”

    Then one of them, named Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, spoke up, “You know nothing at all! You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish.”

    He did not say this on his own, but as high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the Jewish nation, and not only for that nation but also for the scattered children of God, to bring them together and make them one.

    [​IMG]

    No mention of Jesus Christ being King of the Jews anywhere in John 11
    The scene was the meeting of villains where they discussed about Jesus being a threat to their very existence.

    What is mentioned is Jesus would die for the Jewish nation - which doesn't make one a king of the Jews.
    It also said Jesus would also die for the scattered children of God - the true Christians, which distinguishes from the Jewish nation.

    When Jesus Christ was asked by Pontius Pilate what did he answer?

    Mark 15:2 New International Version (NIV)
    “Are you the king of the Jews?” asked Pilate.

    “You have said so,” Jesus replied.

    [​IMG]

    The Jewish Nation is an earthly kingdom
    Jesus Christ said his kingdom is not an earthly kingdom
    Therefore Jesus Christ is not the king of the Jews

    I believe the use of king of Jews on Jesus Christ is a mockery of the Lord



    John 19:2-3 New International Version (NIV)

    The soldiers twisted together a crown of thorns and put it on his head. They clothed him in a purple robe and went up to him again and again, saying, “Hail, king of the Jews!” And they slapped him in the face.
     
  6. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    Its the law of sin within. The ability to be tempted is a weakness. He's born with it.

    The wedding feast parable is another argument for fellowshipping gentiles.
     
  7. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    The Pharisees John, Paul, and Simon told us jesus died for us.
    The Tanakh & Synoptic Gospels presents the idea Yeshua was murdered by the Leaders of the people, which caused the nullification of the Abrahamic covenant, and the Sinai covenant, thus Judah & Israel were to be Divorced (Zechariah 11), for 30 pieces of silver put into the Potters-field for the price of their Messiah.

    Thus the Pharisees have rewritten the contexts, grafting Gentiles onto a defiled covenant wasn't the plan, and thus why in Revelation the whole Church is condemned with 'the Synagogue of Satan who claim to be Jews, yet are not' i.e. the Pharisees.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  8. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Ahm, what's the significance of that? Socrates did something very similar. Anyone could, even me.

    So what's all the fuss about?
     
  9. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    Maybe it's you that are passive aggressive. Let's stick to the actual topic of the thread and not bog it down with trifling accusations. Thanks.

    What is passed on IMO is the propensity or weakness for sin. Yes He has to be made perfect which is the doing away of the flesh but that doesn't mean He was sinful. After all, He was begotten of the holy Spirit. (Luke 1:35) It would be incorrect to assume that the holy Spirit could begat anything sinful. And perfection in that sense implies immortality. Without the problems of mortal flesh. Not necessarily perfect as in "without sin".

    As for the spotless lamb. Think about it. What's the point of a spotless Lamb after the sacrifice takes place? Jesus had to be the spotless Lamb before being sacrificed. (John 1:29) So He had to be sinless before He died or else He was not a worthy sacrifice.

    2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

    According to Paul here Jesus before had not known any sin. So when did God make Him "sin" as 2 Cor. 5:21 is talking about. Clearly it's when Jesus hung on the cross as Paul points out that He was "made a curse for us" by hanging on the tree. (Galatians 3:13)

    So, I submit to you that Jesus was in fact sinless and a spotless Lamb before hanging on the cross. Then He took the curse written in the Law (the curse for hanging on a tree) that transferred all our sins to Him. Because whoever is guilty of one point of the law is guilty of all. (James 2:10) And, secondly the Law is what defines sin and it thereby puts us to death. (Romans 7:9)

    This was done in order that Jesus could nail the ordinances against us to the cross. (Colossians 2:14)

    So, we are all originally from Adam who sinned. And we're sinners like Adam. But Jesus' Father is God. So then being born the Son of God He was born without sin. However, He still did have His flesh to contend with and so was tempted like as we are; yet without sin. (Hebrews 4:15)

    As for learning obedience by the things that He suffered. I don't think that necessarily falls under the "sin" category. At least not in my view. That's just learning.
     
  10. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Well-Known Member

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    Biblically, Jesus was sinless, then became sin FOR us, the perfect becoming imperfect, so that we imperfect may be later perfected. THAT is the death and resurrection of Christ IMHO.
     
  11. Spartan

    Spartan Well-Known Member

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    It's an enlightening theological teaching for Messianic Jews and others also.
     
  12. David T

    David T Well-Known Member
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    Indeed. What is Easter morning? The church celebrates the resurrection but according to the text it's a birthday. But a birthday of what?

    The whole thread reminds me of a neurotic pheonix on a therapist couch completely paranoid about death.
     
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  13. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    Socrates did die for his ideals and as such was a kind of martyr. Socrates is accused of corrupting the youth and dies to prove he is moral. Jesus death is politically a mystical argument (not a proof) that Jews should either integrate or accept Rome's government peacefully etc. People may doubt many aspects of Jesus story, but the principles being argued are different from that of Socrates. Jews at the time of Jesus are considering all sorts of reactions to their predicament, and this miracle story is directed to them. It is very different from Socrates death in this respect.
     
  14. David T

    David T Well-Known Member
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    Sooda, I can write something that I know is clear, and I know exactly why it's clear, and it will appear to some as word salad. In the Bible we have a story, yet the expanations are word salad. The question becomes is the issue with the text or us?

    Are the writers aware of what they are writing about or are they confused or are the readers confused? The Thomas narrative is interesting, it's an ancient Greek paradox. Why does a Greek paradox exist in the story at all? Why isn't that even seen as a paradox?
     
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  15. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Mark's Jesus (the original version, since Paul doesn't have a real one) best fits your argument, I think, and I can appreciate it without being ready, or perhaps ready yet, to accept it. The Jesuses of Matthew, Luke and John are in that order a progression from Mark's dejected Jesus on the cross to John's Master of Ceremonies where the Romans are no longer in charge.
     
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  16. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    I don't disagree. Certainly he never does anything wrong, so argues the NT.

    Yes, but even a spotless lamb sacrificed must have the fat separated from the meat. It may have no spots, but it has fat and parts that have to be burned. Perhaps no sacrifice is perfect until it is offered though it be spotless. I am however more interested in what the sacrifices really do. The people gather round and agree to forgive one another and to love, and that is what ought to happen at communion, too. The body of Christ should be treated as a bond of love and fealty. Remember the RC and orthodox have always considered the liturgy to be the central part of worship, and that goes back through Jewish times which also have had the liturgy. The history of worship takes us back to this act of forgiving one another and commitment to each other, with God in us. "...to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory." col 1:27

    "To be sin for us" is a figure of speech. Here's a man who does nothing evil, yet he must be killed just for being a human. The law of sin in his flesh is enough to condemn him, but he is resurrected because he is approved of God for his nonviolence. He is no son of Cain. Paul argues this demonstrates all people have the potential to be in the house of faith. There are not good people and bad people but people who want to be good but struggle against evil within themselves. I think the best explanation is the 2nd half of Romans 7.

    Sinless, yes. Perfect as possible but still part of him wants to do evil, since he can (in the past not now) be tempted. Thus Paul argues good and evil exist in each human including the gentiles. I feel these forces within myself, too. By the way Paul is not saying anything new. He's perhaps teaching some people in the letter, but he's not creating new material. You will find a lot of this in other Jewish material about the good and evil within people, probably in the Talmud as well.

    I don't disagree.
     
  17. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    Short and sweet!
     
  18. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    Cheer up, David. You could depress a Russian with that stuff. :p
     
  19. Spartan

    Spartan Well-Known Member

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    How was Incarnate Jesus different from humans? He didn't have (for lack of a better term) the sin 'gene'. Prior to Jesus, all of mankind descended from Adam. According to scripture (Romans 3) all have sinned. Jesus did not inherit the ability to act on what Judaism calls the "evil inclination." He was tempted, but due to obedience to God and the Holy Spirit, he did not act on ungodly temptations.

    Jesus took all thoughts captive to God. He nipped temptation in the bud before it could manifest itself into sinful behavior.

    Jesus was different. He was born of God, and God cannot sin.
     
  20. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    One thing I love about Pharisees is they can take a joke, and they also are willing to be the badboys in their own stories. Who kills their own public image, accepting detrimental status for the public good? Most people would not be willing.

    I feel that you have asked a little too much of the Pharisees for the sake of the one-ness. Also this is very paranoid stuff. These guys do not care what you say, but seriously its unfair.
     
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