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Featured Reason for Jesus Death Explained

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Brickjectivity, May 30, 2019.

  1. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    I'll cite a couple of classic NT authors on this subject:

    First the most difficult John 11:51-52 "He did not say this on his own, but as high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the Jewish nation, and not only for that nation but also for the scattered children of God, to bring them together and make them one." Here we have the atonement described as bringing people together and making them one. At least one member here on RF has objected to the gospel of John, however it does describe atonement which is all I'm going to extract from it for this conversation. This how sacrifices function, too, bringing people together.

    Hebrews is also considered NT canon and says Jesus is only made perfect when he dies, implying there is an imperfection in him before then.
    Hebrews 5:9 "and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him"

    Let me consider for a moment that this establishes an imperfection in Jesus of some kind before he dies. That is if we accept the testimony of this author. In that case there is no way Jesus can be a perfect sacrifice, is there?
     
  2. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Jesus did not and could not die on the Cross as he pegged his case with that of Jonah, and Jonah did not die in the belly of fish. Did he, please?

    Regards
     
  3. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    If one agrees to commit a suicide, even then it is suicide not a martyrdom. Right, please?
    Jesus was a Jew not a Christian, so his case should be seen from the light of the OT, not from the angle of NT, which was compiled decades after. Right, please?

    Regards
     
  4. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    Don't let it plague your attention. The nations can't be relied upon, and so eventually there won't be any. The sun withers them all. There will only be people eventually. The machinations and lies are just lights and shadows seen as we whoosh by on a subway train.

    I have heard that some believe he dies and is resurrected in the fish, and their argument is the poetic prayer he makes and the assumption that Jesus dies and is resurrected. Jonah 2:2 "...From deep in the realm of the dead I called for help, and you listened to my cry...." In a way its not a terribly strong argument, but also Jonah's prayer doesn't imply anything (to me) about Jesus death either way. Jesus point in mentioning Jonah is that miraculous signs are a waste of time. I remember Jesus has a parable about a man who wants to be resurrected to preach to his family, but he is told that no it wouldn't help them to change their ways even to see someone resurrected. Jesus point in mentioning Jonah seems to be that: like Ninevah, people must listen to the message for its merit and not because of some miraculous sign.

    By the way this makes it very trivial to argue that Jesus resurrection proved nothing about him, yet one NT author argues that it proves him to have been approved by God. That is something I will cover in the next post hopefully.
     
  5. Baroodi

    Baroodi Active Member

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    How God or son of God accept killing homicidal killing as mean of achieving goodness? This is indigestible dear
     
  6. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    Your assuming the Bible is accurate as written and interpreted literally. I do not hold that view. It reflects the ancient perspective of those that edited, redacted and compiled it.
     
    #46 shunyadragon, May 30, 2019
    Last edited: May 30, 2019
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  7. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    Let me talk about irony and signs and wonders. When Jesus says the Pharisees are looking for a sign, he is making a very serious charge that they are not listening to him and for the wrong reasons.

    To proceed I will first point out a serious problem with testimony that includes miracles, such as this passage in the 2nd chapter of Acts. Acts 2:22-24 uses a type of irony that modern writers can't make use of. You know how sometimes you can tell if a person is lying/joking/using a figure of speech just by context and culture? Its like that. The law expressly forbids accepting the words of a prophet on the basis of miracles, so claiming miracles is an ironic writing device.

    (Acts 2:22-24) "Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.
    This man was handed over to you by God's deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross.
    But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him."


    A glaring problem is where Acts says "accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs." This is being said to Jews, and Jews are not permitted to accept miracles as evidence that someone is a prophet of God. Is it that Acts doesn't know this? No. The writer knows that whenever there are miracles the reader is challenged to test the message of the story, and it is the message he wishes to convey. The death and resurrection and miracles actually are unimportant because of the law in Deuteronomy 13. If Jesus is resurrected or turned water to wine they still aren't allowed to be impressed about it. It would be unthinkable.

    Therefore whether the resurrection is real or not is immaterial to an early Christian. Its not the miracle but the message that matters to him or to her. God doesn't send miracles to prove things. Its innately written in the law.

    I am only discussing it, because the message matters. I want to discuss what the death means and implies, not whether it happens for real and whether the resurrection really happens.
     
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  8. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    I think He had to be the spotless Lamb. That is without sin. Since we know that according to the Law of Moses the sins of the fathers (not the mother) are passed down to the third and fourth generation. Therefore we can conclude that there was a reason Jesus' Father was God. God has no sin; therefore Jesus had no sin passed down.

    The idea behind this is that death and Hades would take an innocent man for the first time. This means that death and hades are condemning themselves. They have become wrongdoers.
     
  9. Wandering Monk

    Wandering Monk Well-Known Member

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    Look at how you have to rationalize everything to support your theology. It is so convoluted, a sure sign of weakness.
     
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  10. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    For those who can bear it, there are at least two versions of what happened that day, done by writers that were contemporaries.

    The Christian version is that he of course died on the cross, was buried and rose in three days, later ascending into Heaven.

    The Muslim version is that the mob was convinced that Judas was Jesus and was crucified, while Jesus (Isa PBUH) simply ascended into Heaven.

    In both versions he returns at the end to stop the fighting, and to help people begin to get ready for the Judgement of God. (Allah SWT)

    It's been more than a decade since I looked all this up, so do not ask for more. If I feel well enough, I will begin doing the research again that reveals both versions.
     
  11. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    Where is the specifics in your post? It's just an attack without substance. It seems to me you are looking for a reason to discount what I say. Why? Bring out your strong arguments. If I'm wrong show me.

    Maybe my post is not for you. I tend to post what would be termed "strong meat" and not "milk" of the Word. (Hebrews 5:11-14)

    The scriptures are very deep. You can study your whole life and you barely scratch the surface.
     
  12. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    Some translations reveal this is 'Iniquity' (Hebrew 'avon) that is passed down as opposed to transgression. The Strong's # is H5771, and it translates to punishment. For example Cain says "My punishment (H5771) is more than I can bear." There are two different words, actually several that sometimes translate as sin but are not all the same. Trouble gets passed on to children but evil deeds do not.

    Hebrews says he has to be made perfect, and there is a passage that says he has to learn obedience in the gospels (probably in John). I could guess that the spotless lamb mentioned in Revelation could be talking about the Son, which may not refer to the personal Jesus but logos or maybe Jesus after his resurrection. If its logos then its the son in the church, or if its Jesus after resurrection then it would help with resolving the two passages one saying he must be made perfect and the other requiring a spotless lamb.
     
  13. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    There is a third Muslim version that Jesus was put on the Cross, but delivered from it in a near-dead position and was put in the Tomb of Joseph of Arimathea where he was treated for his injuries inflicted on him on the Cross, when he got recovered to some extent, he came out from the tomb and traveled elsewhere, secretly, to a place of refuge in an abode of peace and tranquility and with fountains. There he lived till he died naturally* at a very old age.

    Regards
    ______________
    * As per Quran
     
    #53 paarsurrey, May 30, 2019
    Last edited: May 30, 2019
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  14. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    Let us check the transcript of records [the proceedings between Jesus Christ and Pilate]
    Did Jesus really claim to be "the King of the Jews"?
    Or was it because of something else?

    upload_2019-5-31_7-37-45.jpeg

    John 18:28-37 New International Version (NIV)
    Then the Jewish leaders took Jesus from Caiaphas to the palace of the Roman governor. By now it was early morning, and to avoid ceremonial uncleanness they did not enter the palace, because they wanted to be able to eat the Passover. So Pilate came out to them and asked, “What charges are you bringing against this man?”

    “If he were not a criminal,” they replied, “we would not have handed him over to you.”

    Pilate said, “Take him yourselves and judge him by your own law.”

    “But we have no right to execute anyone,” they objected. This took place to fulfill what Jesus had said about the kind of death he was going to die.

    Pilate then went back inside the palace, summoned Jesus and asked him, “Are you the king of the Jews?”

    “Is that your own idea,” Jesus asked, “or did others talk to you about me?”

    “Am I a Jew?” Pilate replied. “Your own people and chief priests handed you over to me. What is it you have done?”

    Jesus said, My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.”

    “You are a king, then!” said Pilate.

    Jesus answered, “You say that I am a king. In fact, the reason I was born and came into the world is to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me.”

    upload_2019-5-31_7-41-35.jpeg

    Is Jesus really "King of the Jews" or it was just a false assumption or a false accusation?
    Jesus is King alright but is when he walked on the earth, his kingdom is from another place not of this world.
    Or Jesus died because it was to fulfill the Scriptures and the reason why he was born is to testify to the truth.

    Why did Jesus die and to whom did Jesus die?
    Now that is the question.
     
  15. Wandering Monk

    Wandering Monk Well-Known Member

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    Transcript? Really? Funny, one would think it is the Romans who would be keeping a transcript of a legal proceeding, not some anonymous person who may not have even been alive when the trial took place.
     
  16. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    That is the penultimate Passive Aggressiveness.
     
  17. Spartan

    Spartan Well-Known Member

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    Jesus had no personal sin. In Hebrews 4 we read, "We have a high priest who was tempted in every point like we are, yet without sin." 2 Corinthians 5:21 - Yes, "he who knew no sin was counted as sin in order that we might become the righteousness of God." So he knew no sin. Also, 1 John 3:5 - "You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin."

    Next, the angels announced that Jesus would be a Savior in Luke 2:11: "For today in the city of David a savior has been born for you who is Messiah and Lord."

    How is Jesus a Savior? Because whosoever believes in him shall have eternal life (John 3:16). Righteousness comes via faith in God (Genesis 15:6; Ephesians 2:8-9). Righteousness comes by faith in God. From Romans 3: "“But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith."

    That's why Jesus died - for our sins - so that by faith in him we could be declared righteous and live eternally in Heaven.
     
  18. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    Nice liturgy. Now if we could just get Christians to actually practice that...
     
  19. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    His capacity to be tempted is probably what has to be removed in order to make him perfect, and that is probably what Hebrews means when it says he's made perfect upon death. Can't say very specifically the its his ability to be tempted, but I can allude to Paul's discourse about sin in his flesh and the law of sin himself. Paul argues that within himself there is a problem that he must die to. The gospels say Jesus has been tempted, and so does Hebrews. What else could it mean when it says he has to be perfected? I don't what else would fit.

    Heavy use of undefined or poorly defined words. For example grace, sin, glory, righteousness and even faith. That post is like a bunch of mad libs. The only thing you left out was 'Blood of the lamb'.
     
  20. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    If it is written what could we do?
    You could contest it in front of the so called Christian world, if you like.
    You could even declare Jesus, guilty of the charges.
    But what is written cannot be undone, specially when its 2,000 years old.

    [​IMG]

    Matthew 27:11-24 New International Version (NIV)
    Meanwhile Jesus stood before the governor, and the governor asked him, “Are you the king of the Jews?”

    “You have said so,” Jesus replied.

    When he was accused by the chief priests and the elders, he gave no answer. Then Pilate asked him, “Don’t you hear the testimony they are bringing against you?” But Jesus made no reply, not even to a single charge—to the great amazement of the governor.

    Now it was the governor’s custom at the festival to release a prisoner chosen by the crowd. At that time they had a well-known prisoner whose name was Jesus Barabbas. So when the crowd had gathered, Pilate asked them, “Which one do you want me to release to you: Jesus Barabbas, or Jesus who is called the Messiah?” For he knew it was out of self-interest that they had handed Jesus over to him.

    While Pilate was sitting on the judge’s seat, his wife sent him this message: “Don’t have anything to do with that innocent man, for I have suffered a great deal today in a dream because of him.”

    But the chief priests and the elders persuaded the crowd to ask for Barabbas and to have Jesus executed.

    “Which of the two do you want me to release to you?” asked the governor.

    “Barabbas,” they answered.

    “What shall I do, then, with Jesus who is called the Messiah?” Pilate asked.

    They all answered, “Crucify him!”

    “Why? What crime has he committed?” asked Pilate.

    But they shouted all the louder, “Crucify him!”

    When Pilate saw that he was getting nowhere, but that instead an uproar was starting, he took water and washed his hands in front of the crowd. “I am innocent of this man’s blood,” he said. “It is your responsibility!”

    [​IMG]
     
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