1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Really, what would Jesus do?

Discussion in 'Political Debates' started by HOGCALLER, Sep 14, 2004.

  1. HOGCALLER

    HOGCALLER Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2004
    Messages:
    255
    Ratings:
    +8
    Really, what would Jesus do?



    It seems politics has entered into “religion” again this election season and some politicians are quoted as making an issue of how Jesus would vote, thus, giving rise to the above question and also bringing to mind the old saying, “sure sounds like the pot calling the kettle black”. One very important thing is definitely missing from the reports however—“quotes” from Jesus expressing his answer. OK, Jesus isn’t granting many interviews these days, but we do have an archive of his reported actions and recorded words from which we can draw solid conclusions of what his answers and comments would be.



    First, a very tiny bit of background about Jewish politics to help in understanding the context of Jesus’ statements and actions. You may remember that for the many centuries following the Babylonian conquest down till Jesus’ day the Jews, for the most part, were not independent of the control and influence of the ‘gentile’ world powers and no King of the Davidic line had sat on the throne in Jerusalem. But now things were different. Due to Bible prophecies’ pointing to that time period as the time for the Messiah to appear and also as the Jews observed the various and many ‘signs’ Jesus was performing (also prophesied) and, additionally, because of their own strong and increasing nationalistic aspirations, the Jews were hoping, and even more than that, expecting Jesus to become their national, political ‘Deliverer’ and even conspired to make him their King. This report is archived atJohn 6:14,15: “After the people had seen Jesus work this miracle, they began saying, "This must be the Prophet who is to come into the world!" [Note: This was probably a reference to the promise made in Deut. 18:15-19.] Jesus realized that they would try to force him to be their king. So he went up on a mountain, where he could be alone.” (Brackets are from An Understandable Version.) Jesus’ taking actions to avoid this political entanglement should speak volumes to us. Was this a single, isolated incident? Let’s see.



    Political intrigue may well have been a motivating factor behind other incidents. We can find a report of one starting at Matthew 22:15: “The Pharisees got together and planned how they could trick Jesus into saying something wrong. They sent some of their followers and some of Herod's followers to say to him [Note: These were members of a POLITICAL PARTY favoring King Herod], "Teacher, we know that you are honest. You teach the truth about what God wants people to do. And you treat everyone with the same respect, no matter who they are. Tell us what you think! Should we pay taxes to the Emperor or not?" Jesus knew their evil thoughts and said, "Why are you trying to test me? You show-offs! Let me see one of the coins used for paying taxes." They brought him a silver coin, and he asked, "Whose picture and name are on it?" "The Emperor's," they answered. Then Jesus told them, "Give the Emperor what belongs to him and give God what belongs to God." His answer surprised them so much that they walked away.” (Brackets are An Understandable Version; all-caps are mine.) Jesus avoided their carefully set trap while at the same time deftly refusing to allow himself to be pulled into this political dispute. Why would Jesus so consistently avoid political discourse? It probably has more to do with his earliest opportunity to become involved with such than with any of the other possible reasons.



    All the other opportunities Jesus had to meddle in politics pale into insignificance when compared to the first and foremost opportunity to do so with which he was presented. We can note the details of this incident as reported at Luke 4:5-8: “And he led him up and showed him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. And the devil said to him, "I will give you all this domain and its glory; for it has been handed over to me, and I give it to whomever I wish. "Therefore if you worship before me, it shall all be yours." Jesus answered him, "It is written, 'YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD AND SERVE HIM ONLY.'"” Just think of all the ‘good’ Jesus could have accomplished if he had accepted ‘dominion’ over all the kingdoms/nations of the earth and the thousands of years and billions of lives that would have been saved . . . NOT! For this would have involved forsaking ‘true worship’ and engaging in ‘false worship’ and also with pledging allegiance or aligning himself (the same mistake Adam made) with Satan, the “ruler of the world” (remember Satan’s rulership includes all those political kingdoms he offered to give Jesus “domain” over then and NOW, also see John 14:30; Rev. 13:2; Daniel 10:20-21). As we can read above, Jesus firmly rejected that opportunity and course of action! Can you see the pattern developing? Yes, Jesus firmly rejected the false reasoning of using or working from within the “system” to “improve” things.



    Is there any part of Jesus’ pattern of behavior that does not apply to or is not to be closely adhered to by those who really want to be his followers and more than just “nominal Christians”? What does “WWJD?” mean if not that? Consider this then: if ever there were something worth fighting for in this world it was embodied in Jesus, was it not? So did Jesus allow his followers to fight for him and for what he stood? (Matthew 26:52) No! Why not? Jesus gives us the answer within his answer to Pilate found at John 18:36, “Jesus answered: “My kingdom is no part of this world. If my kingdom were part of this world, my attendants would have fought that I should not be delivered up to the Jews. But, as it is, my kingdom is not from this source.” (See John 17:14,16; James 1:27; 4:4 and 1 John 5:19).



    Can it truly be said that the politicians, their partisans or any other ‘leaders’ of this world and their followers are adhering to Jesus’ commands found at Luke 6:27-30? “But I say to you who are listening, Continue to love your enemies, to do good to those hating you, to bless those cursing you, to pray for those who are insulting you. To him that strikes you on the one cheek, offer the other also; and from him that takes away your outer garment, do not withhold even the undergarment. Give to everyone asking you, and from the one taking your things away do not ask [them] back.”



    The reason for asking “WWJD?” is so that we today can do the right thing, isn’t it? So the question becomes: Really, what should I/we do? Jesus himself has provided us the answer by his actions and in his own words.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  2. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2004
    Messages:
    3,768
    Ratings:
    +399
    Very interesting post, HOGCALLER (and I like your name, lol).

    I heard a comedian talking about WWJD once. He told a story of how he was in a movie theater and some guy in front of him kept talking on his phone. He almost went up to give the guy a piece of his mind, but then reflected, WWJD? Sooooo, he lit him on fire and sent him to hell, hehe. ;)

    Seriously though, you present a very interesting perspective here.
     
  3. HOGCALLER

    HOGCALLER Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2004
    Messages:
    255
    Ratings:
    +8
    I am happy to know that it was interesting to you.

    Thanks,

    HOG
     
  4. Lady Marva

    Lady Marva New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    6
    Ratings:
    +2
    So, in conclusion, Jesus wouldn't have said, one way or another.

    THAT being said: "Can it truly be said that the politicians, their partisans or any other ‘leaders’ of this world and their followers are adhering to Jesus’ commands found at Luke 6:27-30? “But I say to you who are listening, Continue to love YOUR enemies, to do good to those hating YOU, to bless those cursing you, to pray for those who are insulting you. To him that strikes you on the one cheek, offer the other also; and from him that takes away your outer garment, do not withhold even the undergarment. Give to everyone asking you, and from the one taking your things away do not ask [them] back.”


    Leaders are responsible for the protection, safety and security of the populace over which they have been given (in one way or another) leadership. As such, while they personally may be able to turn the other cheek, they can't do that if it endangers all the rest of the people.

    IE, George Bush couldn't ignore 9/11, had to act, and still has to act to prpotect us from it happening again. While he can pray for the enemy al-queada et.al., he still has to remove them.

    Otherwise, he would be breaking the commandment not to murder by letting more innocents be killed.
     
  5. Melody

    Melody Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2004
    Messages:
    3,261
    Ratings:
    +558
    Huh? What does 9/11 have to do with anything Dubya has done...except give him some lame excuse for putting his own little machinations into play?

    When someone says "I'm a Christian but..." or "I'm a Christian, therefore,...." to justify their actions, it's a good bet that they're about to do something that isn't very Christian. Or maybe it is. I think I'm changing my affiliation from Christian to "believer" as I'm beginning to think Christian (as defined from the most vocal elements) is not something I want to be associated with.

    Hog caller, I think your points are interesting and are probably closer to the truth than most people would like to belive.
     
  6. Ardhanariswar

    Ardhanariswar I'm back!

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2004
    Messages:
    1,380
    Ratings:
    +66
    bush killed 900 (and counting) american soldiers in iraq. indirectly or course.
     
  7. HOGCALLER

    HOGCALLER Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2004
    Messages:
    255
    Ratings:
    +8
    Lady,
    You say:
    I say: You need to read it again!
    Yes, that is right. Because of the facts of the situation revealed at Luke 4:5-8, Jesus was no part of the world, that is completely neutral, and so his followers should be be no part of the world also!
     
  8. Mr Spinkles

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2004
    Messages:
    11,579
    Ratings:
    +2,054
    Perhaps this is why the early Christians refused to serve in the Roman army, because they were against harming anyone (including enemies) and were willing to be killed in the colloseum for it. Notice the Christians never rose up in rebellion to this injustice, they just accepted it, because they beleived salvation awaited them in heaven.
     
  9. HOGCALLER

    HOGCALLER Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2004
    Messages:
    255
    Ratings:
    +8
    Mr. Spinkles,

    That brings to mind some good questions.


    Here is an interesting quotation, “They refused to take any active part in the civil administration or the military defence of the empire. . . . it was impossible that the Christians, without renouncing a more sacred duty, could assume the character of soldiers, of magistrates, or of princes.”—History of Christianity (New York, 1891), Edward Gibbon, pp. 162, 163.



    Why did the early Christians refuse “to take any active part in the civil administration or the military” making it “impossible” for them to “assume the character of soldiers, of magistrates, or of princes”?



    Primary reason: Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind. This is the first and most important commandment. (Matthew 22:37)

    Secondary reason: The second most important commandment is like this one. And it is, "Love others as much as you love yourself. (Matthew 22:39)



    Next question, if the early Christians were that way, shouldn’t we be also?
     
  10. Ardhanariswar

    Ardhanariswar I'm back!

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2004
    Messages:
    1,380
    Ratings:
    +66
    thats if you are christian. but hey, catholocism has X-ed out whatever they didnt like in the bible, so, things change. i always thought it was funny how early christians and jews hated the roman occupation of the holy land, but now they live in the capital itself calling themsleves Roman Catholics. hillarious.
     
  11. Mr Spinkles

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2004
    Messages:
    11,579
    Ratings:
    +2,054
    That was exactly what I thought when I was Christian. I'm glad to see I wasn't the only one.
     
  12. Ardhanariswar

    Ardhanariswar I'm back!

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2004
    Messages:
    1,380
    Ratings:
    +66
    hogcaller is also a member of the christian fundamentalist forum www.freejesus.net he also created the same topic really,wwjd.

    i think jesus would just scream and tell us to stop acting like morons and grow up and think for ourselves.
     
  13. HOGCALLER

    HOGCALLER Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2004
    Messages:
    255
    Ratings:
    +8
    Gerani1248 vbmenu_register("postmenu_28908", true);

    I am a member of several different forums, none of which will tell you who or what I am. But you are welcome to thinks so, if that makes you happy, but it may be a sign of a narrow or closed mind.

    Hogcaller was originally a CB radio 'handle'. I keep it as a 'screen name' as it is a fairly accurate description of what I like to do, especially in a place like this. I snap their rubber tails and then listen to'em squeal.
     
  14. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2004
    Messages:
    8,303
    Ratings:
    +952
    More garbage without proof........... nice.
     
  15. Ardhanariswar

    Ardhanariswar I'm back!

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2004
    Messages:
    1,380
    Ratings:
    +66
    "I am a member of several different forums, none of which will tell you who or what I am. But you are welcome to thinks so, if that makes you happy, but it may be a sign of a narrow or closed mind."

    um, making yourself a supporter of christian fundamentalism automatically makes you narrominded and provincial about the real world. and yet i never said that you were close minded in my previous post.... guilty conscience? never make assumptions.
     
  16. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2004
    Messages:
    8,303
    Ratings:
    +952
    Wow! Two for two! I wonder if Rex can start a "most judgemental" award.....?
     
  17. Ardhanariswar

    Ardhanariswar I'm back!

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2004
    Messages:
    1,380
    Ratings:
    +66
    "

    Quote: (Originally Posted by Gerani)
    catholocism has X-ed out whatever they didnt like in the bible

    More garbage without proof........... nice."

    http://www.freejesus.net/home/viewtopic.php?p=41604#41604

    thats where the garbage replies came from. take a peek yourself. christians modifying the so called God's world to fit thier own needs. condemn homosexuality yet we can wear cotton blends and shave our beards. oh thats right, your pope decided it was Okay that we can disregard those laws. sinse when can a human do that? oh thats right, he has divine authority. isnt that the same as a theocracy? *kings* with *divine* power?

    "Wow! Two for two! I wonder if Rex can start a "most judgemental" award.....?"

    if you are calling me judgemental, i cannot imagine what you must be thinking about christian fundamentalists. people who automatically believe that all non christians are evildoers out to get them. sigh.
     
  18. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2004
    Messages:
    8,303
    Ratings:
    +952
    You are not a Catholic or a Christian and in my opinion not qualified to make judgments about my faith.
    The difference is, I will let the person show me their nature before calling names.... you should try it.

    Scott
     
  19. Ardhanariswar

    Ardhanariswar I'm back!

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2004
    Messages:
    1,380
    Ratings:
    +66
    "The difference is, I will let the person show me their nature before calling names.... you should try it."

    sure, whatever. if you believe that christian fundamentalists are so brilliantly open minded and tolerant of other beliefs and dont condemn jews, homos and hindus to hell, suit yourself.
     
  20. Rex

    Rex Founder

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2004
    Messages:
    3,971
    Ratings:
    +377
    Religion:
    I won't tell
    children children..

    come on now...
     
Loading...