Really can you eat meat?

[Melody]

John 4: 31-34: In the mean while his disciples prayed him, saying, Master, eat. But he said unto them, I have meat to eat that ye know not of...

I don't think this has to do with food/meat but rather food for the soul (i.e. his Word)

Melody

 

[Melody]

Having eaten a non-kosher diet most of my life and now being kosher i think the two things i miss the most are pepperoni pizzas and southern BBQ **drools**

Kosher diet is based on the food laws found in Leviticus - no pork, etc. or is it vegetarian? We used to sell a kosher glycerin and I often wondered what that meant.

Melody

 

[painted wolf]

Druidus, We still do You don't know the people I know. My 'brother' raised his own meat for many years and worked as a butcher. He provided his clients with a service where thier animals would be killed in a respectful way. Many of his clients were not natives, but they chose to have him do the slaughtering because they felt that the animals deserved that respect before they died. They didn't like the 'normal' way.
while the 'modern' way may be 'normal' I think that is because we are 1) poorly educated about the modern meat industry and 2) most do not have access to, or know where to find alternitives.
The only way to change this is to educate people about the alternitives and where to find them.
Simply telling people that they are bad for eating meat will only make them less likely to hear your point of view.
Respect can be revived. We are not extinct and neither is it.

wa:do

 

[Druidus]

By no means do I say that all respect is gone, but there is very little respect in factory farming.

And I don't mean to come off as if I'm sayinf people are bad if they eat meat. I'm just saying I don't feel that it's right for me, because I like being healthier, and not causing nearly as much suffering.

 

[huajiro]

Go Druidus!!!! Go Druidus!!!

 

[jewscout]

Kosher diet is based on the food laws found in Leviticus - no pork, etc. or is it vegetarian? We used to sell a kosher glycerin and I often wondered what that meant.

Melody

I believe it's in Leviticus, no pork, only fish with both scales and fins, no shell fish, no predatory animals and only animals with cloven hoves that chew thier own cud.
Actually i had a rabbi once tell me it's easier to just be a vegitarian then there's no question it's Kosher...but i gotta eat meat it's delicious mmmmmmm

 

[Isis-Astoroth]

Traditional Satanism has no food restrictions though individuals may choose to fast for certain rituals or celebration days. I eat meat because I feel it is part of my diet which I cannot do without. Humans have eaten meat since the beginning of their existence, and I don't understand why I should be any different. However, if the meat industry doesn't improve I may very well become a vegetarian.

 

[huajiro]

Traditional Satanism has no food restrictions though individuals may choose to fast for certain rituals or celebration days. I eat meat because I feel it is part of my diet which I cannot do without. Humans have eaten meat since the beginning of their existence, and I don't understand why I should be any different. However, if the meat industry doesn't improve I may very well become a vegetarian.

That is something that I find very funny. I know many, many. many vegetarians that are doing very well without meat. People are very surprised when they found out that I eat no meat whatsoever, because I am pretty muscular.....you feel it is something you can't live without. You wouldn't know until you tried to live without it.....try it. Then, you can say "I don't kill other living beings needlessly, because i know I can live without it".

 

[Isis-Astoroth]

By eating meat I am not killing animals needlessly. No-one can say I eat just for the sake of it, because I eat only what my body needs. I am not a fan of overindulgence in food. We all need to eat and I am not greatly fond of the diet preferred by vegetarians.

 

[huajiro]

So it is not need, yet selfishness which makes you eat meat.

 

[Druidus]

Humans are herbivorous by design. As we are not designed to consume the flesh, muscles, and organs of animals, there are significant health risks involved with a meat-centered diet. More and more evidence is surfacing that directly links a prolonged carnivorous/omnivorous diet to such diseases as osteoporosis, many cancers, heart disease, diabetes, and asthma just to name a few. Keep in mind, it's only been just recently that smoking has been recognized as a health and environmental hazard. In fact, the evidence regarding the dangers of a meat-centered diet is mounting so quickly that a group of eminent doctors called the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine (PCRM), themselves members of the American Medical Association (AMA), have gathered to change the U.S. consciousness on human nutrition, particularly among the medical community. The PCRM is a nonprofit organization based in Washington, D.C., consisting of doctors and lay persons working together for compassionate and effective medical practice, research and health promotion. Founded in 1985, the PCRM is supported by over 3,000 physicians and 50,000 lay persons.

Not everyone is aware of the fact that humans are built herbivorous.

Human characteristics are in every way like other fruit eating animals (even similar to grass-eaters in several respects), and very unlike the meat eaters and omnivores, as is clearly shown in the table below. The human digestive system, tooth and jaw structure, and bodily functions are completely different from carnivorous animals. As in the case of the anthropoid ape, the human digestive system is twelve times the length of the body; our skin has millions of tiny pores to evaporate water and cool the body by sweating; we drink water by suction like all other vegetarian animals; our tooth and jaw structure is vegetarian; and our saliva is alkaline and contains ptyalin for predigestion of grains. Human beings clearly are not carnivores by physiology -- our anatomy and digestive system show that we must have evolved for millions of years living on fruits, nuts, grains, and vegetables.

Furthermore, it is obvious that our natural instincts are non-carnivorous. Most people have other people kill their meat for them and would be sickened if they had to do the killing themselves. Instead of eating raw meat as all flesh-eating animals do, humans boil, bake, or fry it and disguise it with all kinds of sauces and spices so that it bears no resemblance to its raw state. One scientist explains it this way: "A cat will salivate with hungry desire at the smell of a piece of raw flesh but not at all at the smell of fruit. If man could delight in pouncing upon a bird, tear its still-living limbs apart with his teeth, and suck the warm blood, one might conclude that nature provided him with meat-eating instinct. On the other hand, a bunch of luscious grapes makes his mouth water, and even in the absence of hunger he will eat fruit because it tastes so good."

Scientists and naturalists, including the great Charles Darwin who gave the theory of evolution, agree that early humans were fruit and vegetable eaters and that throughout history our anatomy has not changed. The great Swedish scientist von Linné states: "Man's structure, external and internal, compared with that of the other animals, shows that fruit and succulent vegetables constitute his natural food." So it is clear from scientific studies that physiologically, anatomically, and instinctively, man is perfectly suited to a diet for fruit, vegetables, nuts, and grains.

A few myths:

How do you get enough protein?

Easily. The meat and dairy industries have been basing their claims that we require significant amounts of animal protein on a now discredited study done in 1914 on rats by a pair of researchers named Osborn and Mendel. You'd almost get enough protein accidentally from vegetables and fruits. In fact, animal protein leads to a shorter life-span and higher rates of cancer and other diseases, so obtaining protein through vegetables and fruits is significantly advantageous over animal-based sources.

Calcium! You need calcium! What about osteoporosis?

Yes. We all need calcium. However, obtaining calcium from dairy sources is counter-productive as the animal protein that's also in those dairy sources actually leeches more calcium from your body than the dairy is providing. This one simple fact is why the countries with the highest per-capita dairy consumption also have the highest osteoporosis rates. There are many sources of calcium available outside of animal products.
Supporting studies and more information: www.strongbones.org
and: Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine

• More than half of all water used for all purposes in the U.S. is consumed in livestock production. The amount of water used in production of the average cow is sufficient to float a US Navy destroyer.
• While 25 gallons of water are needed to produce a pound of wheat, 5,000 gallons are needed to produce a pound of California beef.
• It takes nearly 78 calories of fossil fuel (oil, natural gas, etc) energy to produce 1 calory of beef protein and only 2 calories of fossil fuel energy to produce 1 calory of soybean. If every human ate a meat-centered diet, the world's known oil reserves would last a mere 13 years. Note that this also has a negative impact on our atmosphere (eg. global warming). They would last 260 years if humans stopped eating meat altogether. That's 20 times longer, giving humanity ample time to develop alternative energy sources.
• 33% of all raw materials (base products of farming, forestry and mining, including fossil fuels) consumed by the U.S. are devoted to the production of livestock, as compared with the 2% that would be required produce a complete vegetarian diet.
• 260 million acres of U.S. forest land has been cleared for cropland to produce the meat-centered diet. 55 squarefeet of tropical rain forest is consumed to produce every quarter-pound of rain forest beef. An alarming 75% of all U.S. topsoil has been lost to date. 85% of this loss is directly related to livestock raising.

A lot of vegan's talk about the 'ethical' issues behind veganism. Isn't this a bit extreme?

Judge for yourself. Some of the pictures contained below can be disturbing. Our intent is not to shock anyone, but rather to finally illuminate what really happens behind the scenes -- what has to happen so that people can 'enjoy' an omelette, or a burger, or a glass of milk.


Here's a gallery of pictures.
Another set of pictures.
Some battery cage pictures
noDowners.org - 'Downers' are livestock/dairy/'meat' animals that can no longer stand due to illness or injuries and are often left to die where they lie -- however long that takes.

Eggs. More pictures. Depsite their horrendous nutritional impact, treatment of those that lay the eggs is worse. Ever seen loads of live baby chicks thrown into dumpsters to die? Here's your chance. One man's description of a visit to a slaughterhouse.
Another's thoughts on and excerpts from the Details article, "Meat is Murder".

 

[Druidus]

An article entitled "Yesterday's Food Will Become Tomorrow's Food":

<H1 align=center>Yesterday's Food

Will Become Tomorrow's Food

by [font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Dr. David Ryde MB BS FRCP[/font]​

[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]April 8, 1999[/font] [font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Summary
The author speculates that Ancestral Man of 3 - 5 million years ago was a herbivore and an opportunist carnivore; man might also have been a coprophagist. Due to extensive regional climatic changes our ancestor totally adapted to the role of gatherer-hunter in order to survive and the use of fire later helped him in this adaptation. It is suggested that nutritional and alimentary diseases and degenerative changes - afflict meat eaters more than vegetarians. Reasons are given for what the author considers to be the human food niche, and these are used to justify a decrease in the consumption of meat and dairy produce. Palaeoanthropological studies support the National Advisory Council for Nutrition Education Consultative Report, better known as "NANCNE Report."[/font]

[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Discussion
New vegetarians are aware of less digestive discomfort after overeating compared to that caused by an excessive meat meal; they also feel less sleepy. This may indicate that plant products are easier to digest than meat with its fat content and Lucas (1979) records that 100 G plant protein requires 0.25 G hydrochloric acid to be digested in two hours, while 100 G animal protein requires twice as much acid to be digested in 3.5 hours. Since vegans and vegetarians are reported as having fewer peptic ulcers (Walker and Cannon, 1985) than other people there may be a correlation between meat - eating and peptic ulceration. [/font]

[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]During periods of abundance most creatures eat a narrow range of appropriate foods. Lions flourish on zebra and wildebeest meat; song birds on worms, grubs, insects, berries', buds or seeds; waterfowl on pond weed; cattle, sheep, and horses on parts of different grasses; elephants and giraffes on leaves, fruits and twigs; apes largely on fruits and vegetables while the proboscis monkey flourishes on the leaves of a single tree. These niches tend to be transgressed only in time of shortage. What foods then has nature "programmed" for mankind to eat in order to maintain health, growth activity and reproduction? In this article I speculate on what our Pliocene ancestors ate and then relate current eating habits to the nutritional and alimentary diseases and degenerative changes afflicting mankind today.[/font]

[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Introduction
School book and museum art which depict early man as a hunter, may not be correct as once assumed. Jeffs (1969) discusses what humans were programmed to eat, and he concludes that it was naturally occurring foods such as meat, fish, fruit, vegetables and eggs. Boyd and Konner (l9kjB5) state that "from about 24 to 5 million years ago fruits appear to have been the main dietary constituent for hominids". They continue that since 4.5 million years ago "our ancestral feeding pattern included increasing amounts of meat".

Compared to other primates Modern Man eats a great range of foods, and this I believe relates more to his use of cutting and crushing implements and to the later control of fire. That raw meat is almost universally cooked to make it palatable, edible and 'digestible suggests that prepromethean man did not eat it in large amounts. Cooking denatures protein, melts out fat and breaks down the fibrous tissue, making it easier to digest. Carnivores gulp down lumps of meat, their sharpened molars tearing it like scissors for digestion to begin in the stomach. Herbivores with flatter molar-teeth crush the cellulose-walled plant cells, and begin carbohydrate digestion orally with ptyalin (amylase), as occurs in cows, pigs, rabbits and also humans. Today, foods may be pre-digested by cooking and refining, made more socially acceptable and palatable by packaging, flavouring and colouring, and preserved by freezing, additives and irradiation. These foods may already contain herbicides, pesticides, fungicides, hormones and antibiotics. However preservation, packaging and storage for transport and shelf life are social imperatives in today's world.

Biological Comparisons with Primates
Human teeth are omnivorous in design, yet more closely resemble primate teeth whose possessors live largely on fruit and vegetable plants. Carnivorous jaws tear vertically while herbivores and human jaws swing vertically to tear and laterally to crush. Carnivorous jaws do not have salivary amylase (Ptyalin). Compared to carnivores, herbivore bowel length is proportionately much greater than trunk length (about ten times compared to three times) and the human bowel length more favours herbivory. The appendix is almost exclusive to man, the higher primates, rodents and a few lower mammals and it is a vestigial, herbivorous caecum. Carnivores do not have a caecum.

The DNA differences between gorilla, chimpanzee and man are reported ( Cribbin and Cherfas, 1982) as under one percent. This is less than that between different species of horse. In a casual moment one could mistake illustrations of the gorilla digestive tract for that of the human tract and one may cautiously extrapolate that the human and gorilla digestive systems also function in a similar way. Humans apart, the highest primates, that is the chimpanzees and the gorillas, are described as herbivores and opportunist carnivores, eating mainly fruits and vegetables, but they may also eat eggs, insects, lizards and other small creatures if easily available or when really hungry.

Hamilton and Busse (197 8) have presented a chart of twenty one primates which largely shows that their animal food consumption is inversely related to body weight. The small primate weighed sixty five gram and ate 70% dietary animal matter, the two largest the gorilla and orang-utan weigh respectively 126 and 58 kilogram. They consume one and two percent animal matter; and the human primate stands between the gorilla and orang-utan in weight.

Walker as reported by Griben and Cherfas (1982) has been using the electron microscope to study miniscule abrasions on the teeth of living species and fossils. Walker has shown that the characteristic marks on fossil teeth indicate that Australopithecus robustus ( ancestral man of four million years ago) like the modern chimps was not an omnivore but a fruit eater.

It seems reasonable to suggest that one higher primate was able, several million years ago when the climatic chips were down and the forests receding, to increase its food gathering repertoire by applying its knowledge and skills to hunting away from tree cover. While 1 speculate that homo-sapiens is a more efficient herbivore than carnivore crushing and cooking makes meat more digestible for him. It also enables him to consume amounts in excess of his needs.

In a personal communication Amiel Bennan, Professor of Herbivore Zoology, Jerusalem, writes that “the natural sex and adrenal steroids as well as adrenaline and thyroxine are oxidised in cooking and lose a large part of their biological activity”. Presumably cooking also oxidises most of the injected steroid given to beef-up cattle before slaughter. If some people, women in particular, are sensitive to minute steroid residues, perhaps in “rare” undercooked meat, then the concern I felt on theoretical grounds is supported by Sylvia Lewis an electrologist of 30 years experience. Mrs. Lewis, having pondered the matter for five years, states that if a client goes vegetarian then over one to two years her hirsutism diminishes considerably, the coarse hair becoming downy. Also she has many clients who became hirsute on taking steroid contraceptive pills.

Climatic Changes
Pliocene climatic changes of ice age and drought rendered food-gatherings less plentiful and to survive Early Man began to adapt towards a gathering-hunting existence about three and a half million years ago. Probably Man slowly migrated from Africa and adapted to temperate regions by consuming more high-energy fat foods. The discovery of how to harness fire about half a million years ago, further increased Man's alimentary options and proved to be a great social and nutritional revolution as was agriculture about ten thousand years ago.

[/font]

 

[Druidus]

Current Views
Monographs on vegetarians and vegans ( Doyle, Lueas, Moran, Sussman, Yntema) report that these people enjoy their food, are generally slimmer than meat eaters, live a little longer and suffer less alimentary and degenerative diseases. Pixley et al. (1985) report that gall stones occur only half as often in vegetarians as in meat eaters, and Robertson et al (1979) show that the incidence of renal calcium stone disease is related to the consumption of animal protein. Further there is a low incidence of late onset diabetes in vegetarians, and German soldiers fighting on the Russian front-line who, short of supplies had gathered adequate amounts of fresh vegetables had a lower incidence of stomach complaints than home-based soldiers. Indeed colon cancer, hypertension, strokes, heart disease, diverticulosis, tooth decay, piles, peptic ulcers and varicose veins from a larger list of complaints mentioned in the NACNE Report (Walker and Cannon 1985) have all been implicated an modern food related diseases.

Athletic Endurance
Vegetarian nutrition is in no way contrary to an athletic and endurance career, and Paavo Numi is one name among many vegetarians greats. Pritikin (1985) recounts many such endurance records, and it is feasible that endurance prowess is related to the high carbohydrate content of vegetarian food. This is akin to the carbohydrate loading of modern marathon runners. Sussman (1978) writes of a ploughman who once said he needed plenty of meat to give him the strength and endurance to handle his plough all day, yet the ox in whose furrow he trod lived on the grass of the field. In the wild, grazing animals may not have the same turn of speed as their predators but they usually have greater endurance and manoeuvrability.

Nutrition
Yntema (1960) both from personal experience and an extensive literature search states that vegetarian nutrition is compatible with all childhood needs; she adds though “a monthly supplement of Vitamin B12 is desirable". Sussman in discussing longevity in several quasi-vegetarian societies, quotes medical sources that nutrition rather than genetics is probably responsible and that individuals lead vigorous lives with little degenerative disease in old age. I suggest that vegetarianism may not promote longevity, rather western nutrition may promote the earlier onset of degenerative disease and brevity of life. Herein may lie a practical approach to the exponential increase of enfeebled old age that is afflicting Western society. Biologists have reported that rats with a restricted food intake, which extends the period of immaturity, live twice is long as rats whose food was freely available. The biological time clock it seems is accelerated by fat rather than by carbohydrate (Pritikin) 2.

Weight Reduction
If traditional advice for weight-reduction were effective, there would be few overweight people. By advising patients to eat differently, not less, the author ( Ryde, 1982) has enabled a fair number of patients (regrettably unquantified) with obstinate obesity to lose weight gradually and with little trouble, including an effortless five stones in one year in a female patient. Chewing plentiful amounts of fresh raw food means that people are more likely to achieve satiation. Though half the English population at the age of fifty is overweight, the secretary of a vegetarian society estimates that only three of its one hundred and fifty members axe overweight. That weight-conscious people who become vegetarians are more successful in slimming than their omnivore peers is my experience.

Health and Disease
After a consultant nutritionist confirmed to me in April 1985 a report that four angina patients in America had all lost their symptoms within four weeks of becoming vegans (a cholesterol free diet) I suggested veganism to a patient with a fifteen year history of angina and unable to walk one hundred yards. In one month the angina had almost gone and the patient felt marvellous. After three months he regularly walked four miles. As a side effect he had lost twenty pounds in weight and his systolic blood pressure dropped 55 points. The chronic varicose ulcer in a grossly obese male healed within 3 weeks, being accompanied by a rapid weight loss. This was partly a diuresis since a vegans salt turnover (without bread) is under 1 G daily, compared to the 12 G of an average eater.

After accepting near veganism an obese elderly male reported that the breast tenderness he had experienced daily for 5 years had disappeared within four days and had not returned four months later. These and other rewarding anecdotes relating to late onset diabetes, persistent indigestion and hypertension do not constitute proof but since veganism with supplements and vegetarianism are harmless, there is every reason to explore and exploit them. Not often will patients accept a dramatic food change, but for those who do or partially so the results are often sufficiently rewarding for me to now offer such advice increasingly and sometimes without conventional medication. However, much water will flow under the bridge of experience before such anecdotes may become accepted wisdom.

Are Supplements Necessary?
The deficiencies of veganism are reported as being the B vitamins, particularly, B12, and also vitamin D, and the minerals Calcium and Iron. That vitamin B12 is present in animal but not plant tissues is used to support arguments favouring human carnivory though Fossey (1985) writes that “the eating of excrement occurs among most vertebrates, including humans, who have certain nutritional deficiencies. Among gorillas coprophagy is thought to have possible dietary functions because it may allow vitamins particularly B12 synthesised in the hind gut, to be assimilated in the fore gut”. Not a tasteful subject but human coprophagy is rational in man the primate. Even so supplements before stools seems a social preference. The recommended daily allowance of vitamin D relates to body clothing not to vegan inadequacy.

Pritikin 3 (1985) writes that ”the high protein intake which is common in the developed nations causes a negative mineral balance, drawing calcium from bone, to neutralise the acid products of protein metabolism”. It is those who eat meat who need extra calcium.

Childbirth occurs about once every four years in the Kung people (Leakey 1978) one of the few remaining gatherer-hunter societies. Menstruation in gorillas recurs about 2 years after parturition but may be delayed a further two years by continued breast feeding (Fossey, 1985). It is not unreasonable to extrapolate this to Pliocene women. Kung children are breast fed for two and a half years at least and usually longer. Since menstruation whilst breast-feeding is rare, a major cause of iron deficiency is removed. Fossey states that “free living gorillas giving birth to live offspring eat most if not all of the placenta. They may gain dietary benefits from this as also from eating their infant faeces". Modern carnivorous society then imposes abnormal conditions on vegetarians and vegans and it is realistic for them to compensate with supplements. Supplements are given in pregnancy and are added to bread and margarine anyway, for everyone’s benefit.

5 Characters...

 

[Druidus]

Conclusions
I have woven together strands of personal belief, speculation and fact into a hypothesis with perhaps some fruitful implications for a health-conscious society. My hypothesis is that Pliocene man was a herbivore food gatherer, an opportunist carnivore and perhaps a coprophagist. Adverse climatic changes of ice age and drought forced man to adapt towards a gatherer-hunter existence, and the control of fire increased his carnivore options. Currently mankind is adapting, for better and for worse, to the nutritional changes deriving from the creation of agriculture, animal husbandry and a food industry.



Sadly Modern Man neither gathers nor hunts but adopts a sedentary lifestyle which leads his system into a slow atrophy. The evidence offered is not conclusive but hopefully it will promote interest in the recurring question of what foods are appropriate for mankind. Increasing awareness of the human food-niche raises questions such as:

• Which plants are most suitable for humans to eat?
• Are the foetus and breasted child adversely affected by modern nutrition?
• How do we best acquire vitamins, minerals and -trace elements?
• How digestible is raw meat?
• Is salivary amylase an indicator of herbivory?
• What effect does cooking have on animal hormones and might they affect people?
• Does veganism alter mood?
• Might fish breeding with unnatural foods, change a fishes unsaturated fat? [font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
• Of what significance are vitamins in human faeces?
• Concerning human size and weight, does bigger mean better?
• What happens to humans when they chronically breach their food niche?
• What role should cereals and dairy produce have in human nutrition since both are recent, but significant alimentary acquisitions?
• Why are “recent foods" (cereal grains and dairy produce) more allergic than original foods?

To answer the question posed by the title of this article is only to make an informed guess. I believe our Pliocene ancestors were 'programmed to eat a variety of plant foods such as leaves, fruits, buds, berries, bark, seeds, stalks, tubers, fungi, pulses and nuts, later adding meat and sea food, according to need and locality and occasionally perhaps their own stools. Fire increased man's options in carnivory and cellulose foods, and agriculture created a food surplus leading to food storage and the growth of societies and so the need to develop a food industry. Originally food did not contain colouring matter, sweetener preservatives, pesticides, antibiotics or hormones; though modern food production and distribution would not be possible without some form of preservation, processing and packaging.

Ancestral Man experienced a different lifestyle to his descendant, hence the need for caution when making comparisons between living then and now. Modern Man's destructive and addictive habits and his minimal physical activity are unphysiological, productive of excess weight and disease and leads to early degenerative changes. The civilised human lifestyle bears comparison to that of the domesticated animal. If people reduced their animal protein, salt, sugar and fat consumption and compensated with appropriate fresh plant produce they would be closely following the NACNE recommendations. In conclusion I submit that ”yesterday's food will become tomorrow's food."
[/font]

Five Characters...

 

[Isis-Astoroth]

So it is not need, yet selfishness which makes you eat meat.

Selfishness? Does the lion think he is being selfish when he hunts the antelope? Humans are animals, I am an animal, and am given teeth to tear meat. Being selfish is eating more than you need.

 

[Druidus]

Selfishness? Does the lion think he is being selfish when he hunts the antelope? Humans are animals, I am an animal, and am given teeth to tear meat. Being selfish is eating more than you need.

Is the lion's natural food plant-matter? Can the lion survive, and indeed, prosper, on a plant-based diet? No. Meanwhile, you can. The only reason to eat meat is a pleasant taste. You are not "given" teeth to tear meat. You evolved your teeth, which are suited for fruits, nuts, vegetables, tubers, and other plant matter. In comparisons with other animals, carnivores, herbivores, and omnivores, we are plainly herbivores. Your analogy is a false analogy. While you are an animal, you also have hands. These hands can be used to rip out the throats of other people. Does the mere fact that you have the ability to do something mean that you are right to do it? Does "might make right"?

Selfish:

adj : concerned chiefly or only with yourself

Having the concern that you may not have a certain trivial taste while not caring about the suffering of other beings fits the definition of selfishness.

I do not claim anyone to be wrong to eat meat. I merely state that I don't, because I feel it would be selfish of me.

 

[maike]

I would like to see all meat eating people slaughter their own creatures for meat. Look into the beasts eye as you slit its throat and see if you see your compassionate god there. look into the eyes of your faithful dog and ask yourself if your could butcher chop up and eat him or her. A pig has as much or more inteligence as a dog. So God gave you dominion over the animals, which means you can treat them inhumanly, drive them to madness then murder them to satisfy your selfish need for gluttony. A couple of hundred years ago American Christians had dominance over Negros kidnapped from africa, i bet in times of famine they were eaten too, guess the priests were ok with that then.
These days so much food resource is put into producing meat for the rich western countries that over half the earths population is living and dying in hunger. where is the 'Christian' values in that.
A cruelty free diet shows respect for your God, your fellow living creatures that were made by God as companions for Adam so why the hell wouldn't he have given them a soul,(they didn't turn Adam on that much so Woman was eventually produced), the environment (meat production is the number one polluter, land clearer and waster of water), and your own body (which was made in the image of god and is a temple to the Lord. Does God want his temple full of fat, blood, grissle, cancer, diabetes, heart disease, colesterol ????)

 

[jewscout]

I would like to see all meat eating people slaughter their own creatures for meat. Look into the beasts eye as you slit its throat and see if you see your compassionate god there. look into the eyes of your faithful dog and ask yourself if your could butcher chop up and eat him or her. A pig has as much or more inteligence as a dog. So God gave you dominion over the animals, which means you can treat them inhumanly, drive them to madness then murder them to satisfy your selfish need for gluttony. A couple of hundred years ago American Christians had dominance over Negros kidnapped from africa, i bet in times of famine they were eaten too, guess the priests were ok with that then.
These days so much food resource is put into producing meat for the rich western countries that over half the earths population is living and dying in hunger. where is the 'Christian' values in that.
A cruelty free diet shows respect for your God, your fellow living creatures that were made by God as companions for Adam so why the hell wouldn't he have given them a soul,(they didn't turn Adam on that much so Woman was eventually produced), the environment (meat production is the number one polluter, land clearer and waster of water), and your own body (which was made in the image of god and is a temple to the Lord. Does God want his temple full of fat, blood, grissle, cancer, diabetes, heart disease, colesterol ????)

hmmm lets see....
yes i have slaughtered my own animals (deer hunting mmmm bambi burgers are delicious and kosher!), and i suppose if i were hungry enough i could slaughter my own dog...if i had one...that's given that in a scenario like that we are probably both starving and he doesn't eat me first.

A couple of hundred years ago American Christians had dominance over Negros kidnapped from africa, i bet in times of famine they were eaten too, guess the priests were ok with that then.

i dare you to find me a credible source that says that!:tsk:

These days so much food resource is put into producing meat for the rich western countries that over half the earths population is living and dying in hunger. where is the 'Christian' values in that.

and that's a horrible thing and i think we should offer both food and resources to help solve that problem.
perhaps you have some links to offer that we could contribute to, i know many on this forum have posted them and your contributions would be helpful and welcome
Hey get off your high horse man....let me give you some learning:
HITLER WAS A VEGETARIAN!
ooo you like that don't ya?

 

[huajiro]

Selfishness? Does the lion think he is being selfish when he hunts the antelope? Humans are animals, I am an animal, and am given teeth to tear meat. Being selfish is eating more than you need.

Humans only think we are superior beings when it works to our advantage....part of being a "superior" being is our ability to reason. You have no problem putting yourself in the food chain when you think you are on the top.....I would love to see what you'd say if that lion were allowed to take you to the check out line at the local supermarket.

 

[Druidus]

i dare you to find me a credible source that says that!:tsk:

I wouldn't say it necessarily DID happen, but it is likely that if there was extreme famine, they would be eaten.

Hey get off your high horse man....let me give you some learning:

I'm not on a high horse. I'm only stating facts, and what I believe. However, I do see where some might believe that vegetarians have a "holier-than-thou" attitude, especially from a few posts I have read...

HITLER WAS A VEGETARIAN!

Indeed. He was also a human. And a male. He drank water. He ate food. He sometimes urinated. At night, he would sleep. He had a wife, and two kids. He had hair.

A list of other vegetarians:

Writers, Artists, Poets & Philosophers:

• Adams, Scott writer/artist of comic strip "Dilbert" Source: Vegetarian Times June (or so) 1996
• Alcott, Louisa May, author, source: ??
• Anthony, Piers writer source: Himself and his books
• Arnold, Sir Edwin (1832-1904)
• Barker, Clive Author of Hellraiser series, Weaveworld, etc. Source: Appearance on Politically Incorrect With Bill Maher
• Bass, Jules Writer of Children's Books source: Cooking With Herb, The Vegetarian Dragon
• Bentham, Jeremy ?? (1748-1832)
  • Español - Jeremy Bentham
• Berry, Rynn
• Breathed, Berke -- US Cartoonist -- writes and draws Bloom County and Outland comic strips
• Brewer, Gene
• Borges, Boris - painter - source: I Know him pretty good - url: http://www.borisborges.com
• Bronte, Charlotte, writer, source: The Life of Charlotte Bronte by E. Gaskell
• Bush, Wilhelm (1832 - 1908)
• Byron, Lord (George Gordon) ?? (1788-1824)
• Clark, Stephen, professor of philosophy, source: self, url: http://www.liv.ac.uk/~srlclark/srlc.html
• Coe, Sue, Illustrator/ visual journalist, source: Work includes 'Dead Meat', 'Pit's Letter' amongst others, lots on anti-vivisection and anti-meat.
• Coetzee, J. M., Writer and 2003 Nobel Prize for Literature recipient, source: "The Bulletin", 5. Sept. 2001 (australian magazine), Newspapers at the time the prize was awarded
• Conant, Todd, Writer / Poet, source: Brother (actor Sean Conant)
• Confucius - see www.ivu.org/history/east/china.html - under 'Chow Dynasty'
• da Vinci, Leonardo (1452-1519)
  
  • Español - Leonardo da Vinci
  • Italiano - Leonardo da Vinci
• Diamond, Marilyn ??
• Ensler, Eve
• Gach, Gary, Author, source: The author, http://word.to
• Goldsmith, Oliver (1728-1774)
• Gross-Foster, Karen
• Guatemala, Alberto Chavez writes science fiction novels source: interview Radio Cabal, San Salvador, 25.4.2000
• Ha, Peter ( Ha Phuoc Thao ), writer, religious scientist, source: self, http://thaoha.free.fr
• Hardin, Valerie
• Hood, Thomas (1799-1845)
• Howard-Johnson, Carolyn
• Hughs, Ted (??-1998?)
• Ihomocl, Mutaka Writer - source: "vegetarianos del mundo occidental"
• Kafka, Franz (1883-1924)
• Kaplan, Helmut F., philosopher, writer, source: his books and articles, www.vegetarismus.org.kaplan
• Lane, Carla
• Lappe, Frances Moore ??
• Mayson, John, Writer for Monitoring Times magazine, source: self
• McGinn, Colin Philosopher source: writings
• Milligan, Spike (1918-2002)
• Mandeville, Bernard de ?? (1670-1733)
• Mehta, Alka
• Midgley, Mary
• Montaigne, Michel Eyquem de (1533-1592)
• Naipaul, V.S., writer, winner of the nobel prize for literature, source: savvvy magazine India interview with mrs. Naipaul
• Newton, John Frank (1770-?1827)
• Plato, philosopher, source: a book
• Reclus, Elisée (1830-1905)
• Redfield, James,author, source: personal knowledge, www.celestinevision.com
• Regan, Tom
  
  • Italiano Tom Regan
• Rendell, Ruth writer Source: BBC Vegetarian Good Food mag, Dec 1997
• Rifkin, Jeremy
  
  • Italiano - Jeremy Rifkin
• Ritson, Joseph (1761-1830)
• Robbins, Anthony ??
• Robbins, John
• Roth, Geneen, writer, source: in her books she mentions it
• Rousseau, Jean-Jacques ?? (1712 - 1778)
• Salt, Henry (1851-1939)
• Sanminiatelli, Bino scrittore e elzevirista italiano source: dal suo libro "Vita in campagna"
• Sarma, Seshendra
• Schnell, Donald, AUTHOR of THE INITIATION, source: I am his wife, url: www,SpiritualJava.com
• Shaw, George Bernard (1856-1950)
  
  • Español - George Bernard Shaw
  • Italiano - George Bernard Shaw
• Schirneck, Hubert writer (a very good one source: I know him
• Schwartz, Richard (personal website)
• Shankar, Sri Sri Ravi Founder of 'Art of Living Foundation' source: Common Sense www.artofliving.org,www.srisri.com
• Shelley, Mary Wolstonecraft (1797-1851)
• Shelley, Percy Bysshe (1792-1822)
• Singer Isaac Bashevis (1904-1991)