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Realizing that no mocking or blasphemy harms the believer in God

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
If someone doesn't have the mental capacity to follow God's teaching, are the doomed to a fate of torment, suffering, and pain?
It sounds like it yes, if they are mentally closed away from God it must be suffering in it self in my view.
But i have never been a non believer so i can not know how it is
 

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
I do not think this teaching is truth nor is it reality based. What do I get for my trouble?

This is my honest reflection.
 

SalixIncendium

अग्निविलोवनन्दः
Staff member
Premium Member
It sounds like it yes, if they are mentally closed away from God it must be suffering in it self in my view.
But i have never been a non believer so i can not know how it is

By mental capacity, I mean mentally incapable of following God's teachings. A sociopath, for example, whose personality disorder, though no fault of their own, would make them incapable of following said teachings. Or even others with severe ASPDs?
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
At the moment i am sitting down studying the teaching in the Qur'an and i read this .

176. And do not be saddened by those who rush into disbelief. They will not harm God in the least. God desires to give them no share in the Hereafter. A terrible torment awaits them.
177. Those who exchange blasphemy for faith will not harm God in the least. A painful torment awaits them.
178. Those who disbelieve should not assume that We respite them for their own good. We only respite them so that they may increase in sinfulness. A humiliating torment awaits them.
179. God will not leave the believers as you are, without distinguishing the wicked from the sincere. Nor will God inform you of the future, but God elects from among His messengers whom He wills. So believe in God and His messengers. If you believe and practice piety, you will have a splendid reward.

This 4 verses in the Qur'an made me realize that no mocking or blasphemy speech should even affect my own faith and beliefs in Allah. No evil words can harm Allah, so why shuld i even try to fight back?
No need to use energy on those who do not understand or who want nothing to do with religions.

Only focus on how to better one self as a faithful believer :)

What is your understanding of this 4 verses?

Excellent
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
By mental capacity, I mean mentally incapable of following God's teachings. A sociopath, for example, whose personality disorder, though no fault of their own, would make them incapable of following said teachings. Or even others with severe ASPDs?
Could not those illness arise because of sin? Or karma as you may call it
 

SalixIncendium

अग्निविलोवनन्दः
Staff member
Premium Member
Could not those illness arise because of sin? Or karma as you may call it

Are you suggesting karma and sin are the same thing? Because that dog won't hunt.

Let's please keep my worldview out of this, as we are discussing yours.

In your understanding of Islam, can ASPD, which has evidence pointing to either genetic factors or environmental factors, be caused by sin? Is being born with an inherent genetic disorder a sin? Is being the victim of child abuse a sin?

How do you see the possibility of an ASPD arising from sin?
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
Are you suggesting karma and sin are the same thing? Because that dog won't hunt.

Let's please keep my worldview out of this, as we are discussing yours. In your understanding of Islam, can ASPD, which has evidence pointing to either genetic factors or environmental factors, be caused by sin? Is being born with an inherent genetic disorder a sin? Is being the victim of child abuse a sin?

How do you see the possibility of an ASPD arising from sin?
The easy answer to your questi9n is : Yes i believe it arise from sin. If you want a deeper answer that can only be given by Allah
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Glad you liked it :)

May I give you something to ponder over brother? Just consider this.

You quoted the 3rd chapter verse 176. In this the word "Disbelief" is what you have taken into consideration. This word disbelief is "Kafara" in Arabic. The word Kafara in its basic root means to hide something. When you plant something underground, you cover it with soil. This is a covering. This is an act of Al Kufr. Though in English we translate it as "Disbelief" when it comes to religion it has the meaning of hiding something.

For example, if one person says "Kafaraniy Hakki" in Arabic it means "someone denied his right". Its a malicious act of disacknowledging someones rightful claim.

Another case is when someone owes you a debt but in courts he denies it. This is an act of Kufr.

So when you read this passage it is not possible to give the full meaning of the word just like that, but it has the connotation of "knowing something but intentionally hiding the truth about a matter". It is not just disbelief as in rejecting Islam as a religion.

Do you understand brother?
 

rocala

Well-Known Member
Hi @Amanaki
I am a little confused. I am not a follower of Islam or many other beliefs. This is because either the knowledge that I have of a religion is unconvincing or that I do not posses any knowledge of a particular faith. It is not a matter of choice. However I do not mock or otherwise persecute people for their religion. I wish well to all and try to be kind and respectful as much as possible.

Upon reading the first post it seems that I have nothing to look forward to other than terrible torment. Yet a little later you write "if they refuse to hear the truth about religion ( not only islam by the way)". Hence my confusion.

Would you be kind enough to make the position clear? I do follow my own beliefs with great sincerity. Does that make me a "believer" or one of the damned?
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
May I give you something to ponder over brother? Just consider this.

You quoted the 3rd chapter verse 176. In this the word "Disbelief" is what you have taken into consideration. This word disbelief is "Kafara" in Arabic. The word Kafara in its basic root means to hide something. When you plant something underground, you cover it with soil. This is a covering. This is an act of Al Kufr. Though in English we translate it as "Disbelief" when it comes to religion it has the meaning of hiding something.

For example, if one person says "Kafaraniy Hakki" in Arabic it means "someone denied his right". Its a malicious act of disacknowledging someones rightful claim.

Another case is when someone owes you a debt but in courts he denies it. This is an act of Kufr.

So when you read this passage it is not possible to give the full meaning of the word just like that, but it has the connotation of "knowing something but intentionally hiding the truth about a matter". It is not just disbelief as in rejecting Islam as a religion.

Do you understand brother?
Thank you @firedragon yes i understand what you mean by this :)
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
Hi @Amanaki
I am a little confused. I am not a follower of Islam or many other beliefs. This is because either the knowledge that I have of a religion is unconvincing or that I do not posses any knowledge of a particular faith. It is not a matter of choice. However I do not mock or otherwise persecute people for their religion. I wish well to all and try to be kind and respectful as much as possible.

Upon reading the first post it seems that I have nothing to look forward to other than terrible torment. Yet a little later you write "if they refuse to hear the truth about religion ( not only islam by the way)". Hence my confusion.

Would you be kind enough to make the position clear? I do follow my own beliefs with great sincerity. Does that make me a "believer" or one of the damned?
In my understanding if you are a believer in a religion/spiritual teachings and do your best to cultivate your mind, morality and ethics, the way i have understood it is no then you are not doomed.

Maybe @firedragon can give a better answer?
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Oh i do gain understanding from all replies do not misunderstand that. I was expexting non believers to go off the rails to pick every apart of those verses, i knew that it would provoce because it so clearly explain what happens to wicced people.

Maybe see it in another perspective. Instead of seeing non-believers as mocking and blaspheming spiritual beliefs, maybe look pass the tone and find some truth in what we say.

The beliefs, in my opinion, are beautiful in themselves. I like the Quran better than I like the Bible when it comes to spirituality. At the same time, I don't take things as is because of spiritual awakening. If one (anyone) cannot question their own spiritual awakening without confirmation bias, then anyone can follow any belief as long as it brings positive results. Which makes it hard on the believer to think about if they loose that belief, what would they do.

So, give nonbelievers a break.

Half of us don't pick verses apart to annoy believers. Skepticism and rudeness are two totally different things.

But personally i am not taking the critique personally. You feel free to pick apart, but it does not change that it is Allah who knows the truth to what happens to non believers

If the Quran is priceless, it shouldn't be thrown to people who you believe will not respect its teaching. Unless you give all people a chance to learn from them (since you're not taking things personal), you're left for us to wonder your intentions in an interfaith or debate thread.

Maybe it's a spiritual growth thing to learn from every one (using the world as lessons of growth). I get that off and on when I get a spiritual feeling or whim or experience I think "I can actually use each interaction with people and people who are mean to me, turn it around, and think of how to use this to strengthen me. Now I know what the wise means when they say that. It's a work in progress." But I'm not sure of Islam. I just know christianity (the bible). But I'm sure the Quran has verses of learning from nonbelievers and how to talk with people of other faiths. Of course the intentions would be different but I'm sure it's there somewhere nonetheless.
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
Maybe see it in another perspective. Instead of seeing non-believers as mocking and blaspheming spiritual beliefs, maybe look pass the tone and find some truth in what we say.

The beliefs, in my opinion, are beautiful in themselves. I like the Quran better than I like the Bible when it comes to spirituality. At the same time, I don't take things as is because of spiritual awakening. If one (anyone) cannot question their own spiritual awakening without confirmation bias, then anyone can follow any belief as long as it brings positive results. Which makes it hard on the believer to think about if they loose that belief, what would they do.

So, give nonbelievers a break.

Half of us don't pick verses apart to annoy believers. Skepticism and rudeness are two totally different things.



If the Quran is priceless, it shouldn't be thrown to people who you believe will not respect its teaching. Unless you give all people a chance to learn from them (since you're not taking things personal), you're left for us to wonder your intentions in an interfaith or debate thread.

Maybe it's a spiritual growth thing to learn from every one (using the world as lessons of growth). I get that off and on when I get a spiritual feeling or whim or experience I think "I can actually use each interaction with people and people who are mean to me, turn it around, and think of how to use this to strengthen me. Now I know what the wise means when they say that. It's a work in progress." But I'm not sure of Islam. I just know christianity (the bible). But I'm sure the Quran has verses of learning from nonbelievers and how to talk with people of other faiths. Of course the intentions would be different but I'm sure it's there somewhere nonetheless.
I have no ill intention toward non believers.
My hope with an OP like this is not to scare people away, but to show them that without a God to help us in to what ever comes after this life, the terrible feeling of seeing someone go toward suffering and tormenting is not something i want for anyone.
So my posts are more a tiny wakeup call to say what could happen to wicced people ( no not all non believers mock or are wicced)
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
I don't want the easy answer. Please ask him for me and get back to us on how.

Brother. By "ask him" you were mocking this guy. I think its better resort to more meaningful discussion.

Anyway, your question was valid. You asked if Sin is Karma. No. Sin is not Karma. If you speak of the Buddhist philosophy there is Karma and Vipaka. Vipaka being the "consequences" of "Karma". Vipaka is the ripening of the fruit. The stage of ripening.

Karma is not sin. Karma is the cause (to put it simply) of the consequence. There are three Karmas in the Thripitaka. 1) Virtuous actions that produce the physical form and happiness and are the basis of the higher realms; 2) un-virtuous actions that create the physical form and suffering and are the basis of the lower realms; and 3) undetermined actions that create neither of these two.

So Karma is not Sin. You can say that sin is one of the three and infer it to point 2 above.

Does suffering come from sin? Was that your other question? Well, not particularly. This is the study of theodicy.
 

SalixIncendium

अग्निविलोवनन्दः
Staff member
Premium Member
Brother. By "ask him" you were mocking this guy. I think its better resort to more meaningful discussion.

Why do you assume I was mocking him? You barely know me. @Amanaki knows me better than this. If he thought for a moment I was mocking him, I’m confident he would have called me on it

Anyway, your question was valid. You asked if Sin is Karma. No. Sin is not Karma. If you speak of the Buddhist philosophy there is Karma and Vipaka. Vipaka being the "consequences" of "Karma". Vipaka is the ripening of the fruit. The stage of ripening.

Karma is not sin. Karma is the cause (to put it simply) of the consequence. There are three Karmas in the Thripitaka. 1) Virtuous actions that produce the physical form and happiness and are the basis of the higher realms; 2) un-virtuous actions that create the physical form and suffering and are the basis of the lower realms; and 3) undetermined actions that create neither of these two.

So Karma is not Sin. You can say that sin is one of the three and infer it to point 2 above.

Does suffering come from sin? Was that your other question? Well, not particularly. This is the study of theodicy.

Great response. Thank you for that.
 

Pipiripi

End Times Prophecy.
At the moment i am sitting down studying the teaching in the Qur'an and i read this .

176. And do not be saddened by those who rush into disbelief. They will not harm God in the least. God desires to give them no share in the Hereafter. A terrible torment awaits them.
177. Those who exchange blasphemy for faith will not harm God in the least. A painful torment awaits them.
178. Those who disbelieve should not assume that We respite them for their own good. We only respite them so that they may increase in sinfulness. A humiliating torment awaits them.
179. God will not leave the believers as you are, without distinguishing the wicked from the sincere. Nor will God inform you of the future, but God elects from among His messengers whom He wills. So believe in God and His messengers. If you believe and practice piety, you will have a splendid reward.

This 4 verses in the Qur'an made me realize that no mocking or blasphemy speech should even affect my own faith and beliefs in Allah. No evil words can harm Allah, so why shuld i even try to fight back?
No need to use energy on those who do not understand or who want nothing to do with religions.

Only focus on how to better one self as a faithful believer :)

What is your understanding of this 4 verses?
My understanding of this 4 verses is: Ephesians 6:10-18
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Hi @Amanaki
I am a little confused. I am not a follower of Islam or many other beliefs. This is because either the knowledge that I have of a religion is unconvincing or that I do not posses any knowledge of a particular faith. It is not a matter of choice. However I do not mock or otherwise persecute people for their religion. I wish well to all and try to be kind and respectful as much as possible.

Upon reading the first post it seems that I have nothing to look forward to other than terrible torment. Yet a little later you write "if they refuse to hear the truth about religion ( not only islam by the way)". Hence my confusion.

Would you be kind enough to make the position clear? I do follow my own beliefs with great sincerity. Does that make me a "believer" or one of the damned?

Damned?

There are many muslims who consider everyone other than Muslims to be damned. Just like any other religion I would say. There are other Muslims who consider other sects of Islam as damned. There are some Muslims who believe that anyone who had been given the message of Islam and reject it are damned. There are other Muslims who believe no one is damned meaning we dont know who is damned or/and who is not.

But what you can do in your exploration is try and understand what the Quran says. In the verses quoted form chapter three in the OP, where In this the word "Disbelief" is what you have taken into consideration. This word disbelief is "Kafara" in Arabic. The word Kafara in its basic root means to hide something. When you plant something underground, you cover it with soil. This is a covering. This is an act of Al Kufr. Though in English we translate it as "Disbelief" when it comes to religion it has the meaning of hiding something.

For example, if one person says "Kafaraniy Hakki" in Arabic it means "someone denied his right". Its a malicious act of disacknowledging someones rightful claim.

Another case is when someone owes you a debt but in courts he denies it. This is an act of Kufr.

So when you read this passage it is not possible to give the full meaning of the word just like that, but it has the connotation of "knowing something but intentionally hiding the truth about a matter". It is not just disbelief as in rejecting Islam as a religion.

So if you think or question if you are damned for believing what you honestly believing I say "no". But if you ask me whether you are damned if you borrow money from someone and deny it in courts that's an act of "Blasphemy" in the Quranic discourse. Then of course you are damned. (when I say you I don't mean you personally as you hopefully understand).

The analogy of the liar in court I gave from the writing about Muhammed the lawyer (Not prophet) where the man who lied court is not called a disbeliever, but the act is an act of Al Kufri so an act of disbelief/blasphemy/malicious intent. Do you understand? If he does not repent and make amends, of course he is damned.

Cheers.
 
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