Real Polytheism

[Jayhawker Soule]

I guess my confusion stems from the fact that if you're basically just going to worship one god exclusively, why not go for a religion that has only one?

Because some people view religion as an inference rather than a selection. It's the difference between studying a map and dropping into Baskin-Robins.

 

[Rival]

Really? I think most Westerners with just a bit of basic historical knowledge would know about things like the priestesses of Apollo and the priests of Horus. Priests of particular deities, right?

Dude I live in a backwater village where no-one knows what Baptist churches are, let alone minor intricacies of various Pagan religions

On a more serious note, honestly no, I don't think may folks I've interacted with know this kind of stuff.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

This is a discussion forum. It's for open discussion among forum members.

Absolutely.

 

[Harel13]

I guess I'm just coming from a place of confusion where it makes more sense just to have one God that does everything

In my opinion, we modern people can't truly comprehend the polytheistic mentality of old, that is, the mindset of the Babylonians, Assyrians, Egyptians, Caananites, Romans, Greeks, etc. At times I'm not sure they had so deeply-developed theologies as appear to sometimes be ascribed to those religions by modern scholars and/or neo-pagans. I feel that all stems from the complicated theological mentality ingrained in Western and Eastern-Muslim thought, and so we expect that ancient religions had complicated theologies and spiritual-deepness, but...what if they didn't? What if we simply think that because that's the modern understanding of religion, based on monotheism?

 

[Rival]

In my opinion, we modern people can't truly comprehend the polytheistic mentality of old, that is, the mindset of the Babylonians, Assyrians, Egyptians, Caananites, Romans, Greeks, etc. At times I'm not sure they had so deeply-developed theologies as appear to sometimes be ascribed to those religions by modern scholars and/or neo-pagans. I feel that all stems from the complicated theological mentality ingrained in Western and Eastern-Muslim thought, and so we expect that ancient religions had complicated theologies and spiritual-deepness, but...what if they didn't? What if we simply think that because that's the modern understanding of religion, based on monotheism?

It could well be, and this is a pitfall of many modern takes on various non-Abrahamic (for lack of a better word) ideologies. I've no doubt that there were some theological intricacies, but the major theme of many seems to be ritual and festival. Many of the authors in much of the Egyptian stuff I've been reading have said the same - that Ramesside theology (personal piety, personal gods etc.) did not emerge until the New Kingdom after the Amarna period where the polytheism was supressed. It's a fascinating subject, really.

 

[Harel13]

In my opinion, we modern people can't truly comprehend the polytheistic mentality of old, that is, the mindset of the Babylonians, Assyrians, Egyptians, Caananites, Romans, Greeks, etc. At times I'm not sure they had so deeply-developed theologies as appear to sometimes be ascribed to those religions by modern scholars and/or neo-pagans. I feel that all stems from the complicated theological mentality ingrained in Western and Eastern-Muslim thought, and so we expect that ancient religions had complicated theologies and spiritual-deepness, but...what if they didn't? What if we simply think that because that's the modern understanding of religion, based on monotheism?

This reminds me that a couple of months ago I spent several hours explaining to a first-year yeshiva student several common misconceptions about polytheism (I was giving him some pointers for an essay he was working on), and I emphasized several times over that I'm not sure we really know what went on in the minds of the ancients in terms of their religions. Even within Judaism, I feel that there are those that ascribe layers to polytheism that never crossed the minds of polytheists, as was the case in that kid's original description of the historical roots of polytheism (before I convinced him to change it).

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

As an aside, it occurs to me that threads dealing with polytheism could really benefit from the input of a few informed Hindus and Taoists.

 

[Harel13]

I've no doubt that there were some theological intricacies

Oh, of course. We do find things like descriptions of the workings of the underworld.

but the major theme of many seems to be ritual and festival

Exactly. Religion certainly kept them busy year-round - I just don't think it kept their minds so busy.

 

[Rival]

This reminds me that a couple of months ago I spent several hours explaining to a first-year yeshiva student several common misconceptions about polytheism (I was giving him some pointers for an essay he was working on), and I emphasized several times over that I'm not sure we really know what went on in the minds of the ancients in terms of their religions. Even within Judaism, I feel that there are those that ascribe layers to polytheism that never crossed the minds of polytheists, as was the case in that kid's original description of the historical roots of polytheism (before I convinced him to change it).

You've also reminded me of the commonly held belief that there was no mysticism in Ancient Egypt. This has been the dominant view for years. It seems believable because for a long, long time there was no real personal piety or personal meeting with God/gods by commoners and no real mystical literature etc.

I have another book that challenges this assumption, but not really dived into it yet.

 

[Erebus]

In my opinion, we modern people can't truly comprehend the polytheistic mentality of old, that is, the mindset of the Babylonians, Assyrians, Egyptians, Caananites, Romans, Greeks, etc. At times I'm not sure they had so deeply-developed theologies as appear to sometimes be ascribed to those religions by modern scholars and/or neo-pagans. I feel that all stems from the complicated theological mentality ingrained in Western and Eastern-Muslim thought, and so we expect that ancient religions had complicated theologies and spiritual-deepness, but...what if they didn't? What if we simply think that because that's the modern understanding of religion, based on monotheism?

One problem that's worth keeping in mind is that we've lost a lot of knowledge about ancient polytheistic cultures. We have to piece together an image of their beliefs and customs from the fragments we have left.

To complicate matters further, a lot of the stories that we do have were recorded by monotheists. As such, there can be something of a question mark over how accurately they convey the mindset of the culture they belonged too. The Irish Celts are a good example of this. The myths we have were mainly preserved by Christian monks, not the Celts themselves. In many instances it looks as if they were treated pretty fairly though that changes dramatically when it comes to stories about the interactions between Pagans and Christian saints. The Irish Celts suddenly turn into savage Devil-worshippers in stories about the saints.

 

[Rival]

Exactly. Religion certainly kept them busy year-round - I just don't think it kept their minds so busy.

It occurred to me that maybe to ancient polytheists, gods were (and to some, still are) just a feature of the world in the way, say, flowers are. I'm not a massive flower fan, but I accept flowers exist, I don't mind flower decorations or emojis or whatnot, but I've no desire to go into the minutiae of flower lifespans, germination, smell production, interactions with bees and whatnot. I wonder if many polytheists were like that.

It's just not a very flattering picture to modern sensibilities.

 

[Harel13]

One problem that's worth keeping in mind is that we've lost a lot of knowledge about ancient polytheistic cultures. We have to piece together an image of their beliefs and customs from the fragments we have left.

To complicate matters further, a lot of the stories that we do have were recorded by monotheists. As such, there can be something of a question mark over how accurately they convey the mindset of the culture they belonged too. The Irish Celts are a good example of this. The myths we have were mainly preserved by Christian monks, not the Celts themselves. In many instances it looks as if they were treated pretty fairly though that changes dramatically when it comes to stories about the interactions between Pagans and Christian saints. The Irish Celts suddenly turn into savage Devil-worshippers in stories about the saints.

On one hand that's true, but on the other hand, it would really depend on what was lost? Was there really some now-lost theological treasure? As we don't know, and based on what we do have, I'm merely putting forth the suggestion that, well, lost works might have just been more rituals. More festivals. More spells. Not necessarily complicated theology.

 

[Brian2]

Having come into a world where this is common, I've noticed a trend that may be lost on most Abrahamics and it's confusing to me, so I'll just lay it out.

A common theme I've begun seeing in polytheistic communities is a person taking one god and basically dedicating him or herself to that one at the expense of the others. This happened historically as well, of course. But it seems to me to defeat the purpose of polytheism. I mean, if you have, say, 20 gods why just focus only one one and write/pray/give offers etc. only to one?

Hinduism is like this. But I guess that it could be said that all gods are the one God really, maybe just different aspects.
And in a practical sense how many gods could one person dedicate him/herself to anyway?

 

[Rival]

On one hand that's true, but on the other hand, it would really depend on what was lost? Was there really some now-lost theological treasure? As we don't know, and based on what we do have, I'm merely putting forth the suggestion that, well, lost works might have just been more rituals. More festivals. More spells. Not necessarily complicated theology.

When it comes to cultures like Rome, I think there's a 'maybe', but it depends if one wants to count various mystery cults especially. But with the Norse, Slavic and other stuff, I really doubt it.

 

[Harel13]

When it comes to cultures like Rome

I think that might depend on how much the Greek and Roman philosophies were mixed in with the religion.

 

[Erebus]

On one hand that's true, but on the other hand, it would really depend on what was lost? Was there really some now-lost theological treasure? As we don't know, and based on what we do have, I'm merely putting forth the suggestion that, well, lost works might have just been more rituals. More festivals. More spells. Not necessarily complicated theology.

You're quite right about that, it's often difficult or impossible to say exactly how complex a culture's theology was. This is also something that will vary depending on the culture in question. I think it's probably a safe bet that the Greek views on the nature of gods were more nuanced than the Celtic views. However, that may always be more of an educated guess than concrete knowledge since there's simply more surviving information about the Greeks than the Celts.

 

[Rival]

I think that might depend on how much the Greek and Roman philosophies were mixed in with the religion.

This is definitely an issue and I've harped on this before. I've no real issue with sticking a philosophy onto your religion, I think most folks do it to some degree, but when that philosophy is basically making up for the fact that your religion has little else than holidays and statues, then it's a problem.

 

[Sirona]

guess my confusion stems from the fact that if you're basically just going to worship one god exclusively, why not go for a religion that has only one?

It's a bit like inventing an arbitrary rule that you must only have one friend because you happen to have one close friend you spend most of your time with. Some are close, some are not so close, some are just acquaintance you see once a year.

 

[Rival]

@Harel13 when I say 'philosophy' that many folks have, I'm thinking of, say, Rabbi Hirsch's Torah Im Derech Eretz philosophy, or various Chassidic philosophies that may be 'added' to an otherwise well-formed religious outlook. These are obviously not seen as problematic by many and are often welcomed.

 

[Rival]

It's a bit like inventing an arbitrary rule that you must only have one friend because you happen to have one close friend you spend most of your time with. Some are close, some are not so close, some are just acquaintance you see once a year.

I think this is kind of another issue I'm seeing, though - treating a god as if he or she is just kind of a guy you go to for xyz and then leaving again.