real enlightenment

[Ben Dhyan]

I was 'driving by'...thought I might 'take a shot' at this.

from another thread...in response to a metaphor of climbing mountains
compared to enlightenment....

I quote myself.
"The metaphor is not properly used.
People climb mountains for a variety of reasons.

When they get to the top...the typical proclamation would be...
"I did it!"
Mountain climbing is basically an ego trip.

The only exception I know would be the effort of Moses.
He was eighty years old.
He went up on the mount to meet God.
He went there to die.
He had no intention of anything else.

Yes I can...I can speak of intention... as the effort made...shows it.

Moses had no preconceived notion what would happen...
except that he would die.
He went to meet his God.

This is about as selfless as one can be...when mountain climbing.
No accomplishment...no reward...no return...

Funny, it didn't work out that way."

Yes Thief, very inspiring and intuitively near the mark IMHO.

 

[YmirGF]

Thank you for your refreshing candor YmirGf, your experience of decades ago is not unusual if you had been engaged in any religious practice such as yoga, meditation, deep prayer, contemplation, etc., or perhaps even just deep speculation about life. However as the saying goes, the first rain drops portend the coming storm, but are not to be mistaken for it.

My pleasure, Bendy. From my perspective those first drops of rain heralded an oncoming storm, which as always occurs, gave way to a refreshing, pristine, break in the clouds. Eventually the sun shone through. It's still shining, Ben.

Beyond that, I do find your assertion to be a teeny bit patronizing. If your assertion was true, in theory we should be tripping over enlightened beings on a daily basis. Since that is not the case, I'd suggest there is a fly in your ointment.

It is apparent that your understanding/interpretation of what enlightenment means is different to my understanding, so therein lies lies the difference of opinion. Suffice to say that for me enlightenment means liberation from ego identification, but that does not mean there is an extinction of self identity, just that it no longer identifies with a singular mortal body..

I suppose what rankles me is the idea that the ego is like some black sheep of the psyche that has to be sidelined to appreciate a greater vista. In my worldview, the ego is a part of the team and WILLINGLY steps aside because is gains immeasurable from the experience. It is not threatened, nor is it negated. It's a win/win situation.

Fine, my own understanding is that an enlightened being wouldn't necessarily know if they were enlightened, and nor probably would the unenlightened while they were still incarnate,..besides which they are no longer long for this world after realizing enlightenment though myths may be created in their memory in history.

So... in that case, what exactly is the point of enlightenment if you may or may not be aware of it? Even if one is dealing with an expanded sense of self, what IS the bloody point if one is unaware? Riddle me that and I'll give you a cookie.

YmirGF, differences in perspective are not a problem so long as there is mutual respect shown to each other for we indeed are all part of a single reality that has brought us into being and nurtures us still,...for there is yet lots of mystery to be unveiled.

Cheers

Sadly Ben, I am one who sees confrontation as a good thing, as it puts issues under scrutiny more quickly than "respectful" banter ever can. It puts people in the spot and they either sink or swim. On a positive note, you are regaining some of my respect for you... but don't let it go to your head just yet.

On a personal note, I do find it somewhat amusing that two old fogies are implying the other still has much to learn. Ah, the irony.

 

[TurkeyOnRye]

I suppose what rankles me is the idea that the ego is like some black sheep of the psyche that has to be sidelined to appreciate a greater vista. In my worldview, the ego is a part of the team and WILLINGLY steps aside because is gains immeasurable from the experience. It is not threatened, nor is it negated. It's a win/win situation.

It seems to me that entering into a hostile relationship with your egos can be initially helpful for those who are just beginning to discover their inner world. As if it is merely prep-work for settling into a 'quicker', more 'modern' ego form that does not deny the preceeding forms. In essence, this would be ego forms dissolving more quickly than their "usefulness" intends.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

My pleasure, Bendy. From my perspective those first drops of rain heralded an oncoming storm, which as always occurs, gave way to a refreshing, pristine, break in the clouds. Eventually the sun shone through. It's still shining, Ben.

Beyond that, I do find your assertion to be a teeny bit patronizing. If your assertion was true, in theory we should be tripping over enlightened beings on a daily basis. Since that is not the case, I'd suggest there is a fly in your ointment.

That's a puzzling conclusion to draw from my post! FWIW Paul, you may claim that you are one who sees confrontation as a good thing, but good grief, if you persist in misrepresenting what is being said to you, either through obtuseness or mischief, then clearly a constructive discussion becomes impossible.

However since you have raised the issue concerning the prevalence of instances of enlightenment, my own understanding is that it is an extremely rare event for a disciple to go on to realize enlightenment after the initial samadhi experiences. Many fail due to incredibly difficult trials an initiate faces on the long and arduous process. Enlightenment is not about physical reality, its about the transcendent realms. But by far the most fail due to the common but very fatal error in the progress towards enlightenment is ego identification with the samadhi experience,...e.g."I had a samadhi experience" and/or "I experienced being out of body", etc.. The 'I' most definitely does not leave the body and as a result can't ever experience samadhi.

I suppose what rankles me is the idea that the ego is like some black sheep of the psyche that has to be sidelined to appreciate a greater vista. In my worldview, the ego is a part of the team and WILLINGLY steps aside because is gains immeasurable from the experience. It is not threatened, nor is it negated. It's a win/win situation.

The ego came into existence through the natural cosmic creative process of pure non-ego universal spirit incarnating through the mineral, plant and animal to reach the peak of its selfconscious development in the human kingdom. However during this involutional process, the incarnated spirit 'self' loses its affinity with the perfection of its original universal spirit source and falls sway to the cosmic natural karmic principles of cause and effect which in turn lead it to suffer the retributive consequences of its ignorance (of natural cosmic harmony). Ego consciusness eventually realizes the benifits of virtue and harmony as a way to mitigate against suffering and this previous involutional directed process gives way to the evolutional whereby the identification with material principles wanes while affinity with the principles underlying universal harmony waxes. At some point the incarnate self awareness of an initiate is translated from existing incarnate state of being to the immaterial realm along with an apropriate vesture.

So... in that case, what exactly is the point of enlightenment if you may or may not be aware of it? Even if one is dealing with an expanded sense of self, what IS the bloody point if one is unaware? Riddle me that and I'll give you a cookie.

A Buddha really isn't a Buddha,...the concept of a Buddha is one of the terms used by unenlightened humans to represent enlightened beings. Enlightened beings don't deal in concepts, they just are what they are, and their awareness is non local and non-dualsitic so human given names and titles are irrelevant.

Sadly Ben, I am one who sees confrontation as a good thing, as it puts issues under scrutiny more quickly than "respectful" banter ever can. It puts people in the spot and they either sink or swim. On a positive note, you are regaining some of my respect for you... but don't let it go to your head just yet.

On a personal note, I do find it somewhat amusing that two old fogies are implying the other still has much to learn. Ah, the irony.

Well Paul, regardless of all else, it is clear to me that the experiences life provides for each ande everyone of us mere mortals are appropriate and relevant for our further development and whatever the actual reality represented by the concept 'enlightenment', that is the ultimate destiny of all,

Now of course just like a school in this world, cosmic evolution has many grades and just like in school graduates are those who have passed every through successfully through all grades from the lowest to the highest, so have the enlightened entities lived lives at all levels. Todays criminal will be tomorrow's saint in the everflowing pilgrimage from selfishness to selflessness.

From perfect universal spirit (but not self aware), to imperfect but self aware incarnate spirit as a human, and finally after enlightenment back to perfect universal spirit but with perfect self awareness.

I am Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End.

On a personal note it is a given that you have a different perspective on this subject, and that's fine, my post is just the expression of the way my present understanding understands.

 

[TurkeyOnRye]

I am Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End.

Mystics and Saints are a dime a dozen these days.. You may want to keep thoughts like that to yourself. Remember what happened to the last guy that talked like that?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Mystics and Saints are a dime a dozen these days.. You may want to keep thoughts like that to yourself. Remember what happened to the last guy that talked like that?

Haha..using that scriptural rhetoric of Rev 22 in the context of explaining the esoteric basis underlying it, is often shared with those who have an affinity with the mystical traditions.

 

[atanu]

I am Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End.

Thank you Ben.

Reading this thread i was surprised that there was a talk of removal of notions without realising that the notions begin with a notion of temporary 'i'.

...

 

[chinu]

enlightenment happens
when deception vanishes.

For a deception to APPEAR real it must have two parts
a Subject and Object. (reality's duality)

Subject and Object create TWO levels of deception. The first deception is called "Reality" the other is "Spirituality."
When both subject and object appear real the deception is called “reality.”
When only the subject appears real then experts call their deception “spirituality.”

when BOTH subject and object appear Unreal
then there is no deception
only the hallucination
of the ONE that thoughts make NONE, NOW.

O'no

Welcome Genep

_/\_
Chinu