real enlightenment

[Itself]

enlightenment happens
when deception vanishes.

For a deception to APPEAR real it must have two parts
a Subject and Object. (reality's duality)

Subject and Object create TWO levels of deception. The first deception is called "Reality" the other is "Spirituality."
When both subject and object appear real the deception is called “reality.”
When only the subject appears real then experts call their deception “spirituality.”

when BOTH subject and object appear Unreal
then there is no deception
only the hallucination
of the ONE that thoughts make NONE, NOW.

O'no

 

[Onkara]

True. This change is at the level of consciousness or realisation of our true Self. It does not imply a change at the level of the senses.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

or as Bodhidharma puts it....

The mind that neither exists nor doesn't exist is called the Middle Way.
If you use your mind to study reality, you won't understand either your mind or reality. If you study reality without using your mind, you'll understand both.

People capable of true vision know that when the mind is empty, they transcend both understanding and not understanding. The absence of both understanding and not understanding is true understanding.

Seen with true vision, form isn't just form, because form depends on mind. And mind isn't just mind, because mind depends on form. Mind and form create and negate each other. That which exists, exists in relation to that which doesn't exist. And that which doesn't exist doesn't exist in relation to that which exists.

By means of such vision nothing is seen and nothing is not seen. Such vision reaches throughout the ten directions without seeing: What mortals see are delusions. True vision is detached from seeing.

 

[Onkara]

Hello Ben
It comes across very wholesome, in that what ever we see is the whole picture and all that can be seen. Limited to space and time, we can recognise that we are surrounded in wholeness and it is the mind which divides.

 

[TurkeyOnRye]

Careful not to confuse sense data for thoughts, and thoughts for self...er ego.

 

[Onkara]

Good point TurkeyOnRye

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Hello Ben
It comes across very wholesome, in that what ever we see is the whole picture and all that can be seen. Limited to space and time, we can recognise that we are surrounded in wholeness and it is the mind which divides.

Yes Onkarah, understanding that our limited understanding is not true understanding is an essential prerequisite state which precedes the ultimate and effortless cessation of non-essential conceptual thinking.

 

[TurkeyOnRye]

Yes Onkarah, understanding that our limited understanding is not true understanding is an essential prerequisite state which precedes the ultimate and effortless cessation of non-essential conceptual thinking.

I would suggest that it is not a cessation of thinking, but a more streamlined pattern of thinking because it does not have the 'loose ends' of "normal" consciousness due to its expanded nature. I do realize you may very well have assumed such a premise in your statement.

To me, this is perhaps one of the most valuable aspects of this different consciousness because the world becomes incredibly vivid, almost fantasy-like when you're not caught in chatter. The things that become noticed when you're receptive!!.. :rainbow1:

 

[Onkara]

Personally, and I add this as an continuation, not a correction. Thought and thinking has no importance, if thoughts arise or not, what difference does it make when nonduality is known.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I would suggest that it is not a cessation of thinking, but a more streamlined pattern of thinking because it does not have the 'loose ends' of "normal" consciousness due to its expanded nature. I do realize you may very well have assumed such a premise in your statement.

To me, this is perhaps one of the most valuable aspects of this different consciousness because the world becomes incredibly vivid, almost fantasy-like when you're not caught in chatter. The things that become noticed when you're receptive!!.. :rainbow1:

Hi TurkeyOnRye, thank you for your input.

While there are altered states of consciousness as you suggest, the state of being that prevails when conceptual thinking fully ceases really can't be conveyed in words because that reality is not actually a mental construct of the mind but exists independent of the mind's conceptualization representing it. IOW, IT is real in and of itself and any indirect mental cogitation whatsoever concerning IT is still a relative 'chatter' which involves inherent dualistic mental conceptualizations (no matter how subtle, awesome, and wondrously beautiful ) and which can never in all eternity realize the transcendent non-dual state of universal oneness.

 

[TurkeyOnRye]

hi turkeyonrye, thank you for your input.

While there are altered states of consciousness as you suggest, the state of being that prevails when conceptual thinking fully ceases really can't be conveyed in words because that reality is not actually a mental construct of the mind but exists independent of the mind's conceptualization representing it. Iow, it is real in and of itself and any indirect mental cogitation whatsoever concerning it is still a relative 'chatter' which involves inherent dualistic mental conceptualizations (no matter how subtle, awesome, and wondrously beautiful ) and which can never in all eternity realize the transcendent non-dual state of universal oneness.

Ram; Ram Ram; Ram Ram Ram; Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram; Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram; Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram...ha ha. Couldn't help myself.

 

[YmirGF]

Hi TurkeyOnRye, thank you for your input.

While there are altered states of consciousness as you suggest, the state of being that prevails when conceptual thinking fully ceases really can't be conveyed in words because that reality is not actually a mental construct of the mind but exists independent of the mind's conceptualization representing it. IOW, IT is real in and of itself and any indirect mental cogitation whatsoever concerning IT is still a relative 'chatter' which involves inherent dualistic mental conceptualizations (no matter how subtle, awesome, and wondrously beautiful ) and which can never in all eternity realize the transcendent non-dual state of universal oneness.

You almost succeed in making it sound like you know what you are talking about. Almost... but... not really...

 

[Ben Dhyan]

You almost succeed in making it sound like you know what you are talking about. Almost... but... not really...

Well thanks for the complement , but in any event it is not expected that the reader should merely accept or reject the conceptual message, but rather it is offered for consideration in the light of their present understanding.

BTW, anyone ever considered the possibility that the Cosmos with its myriad galaxies, stars, planets, entities, etc., macro to micro, along with the ever intra and inter penetration and exchange of energies and fields, known and unknown, constitute as an integrated whole, the ONE archetypal MIND?

 

[Onkara]

BTW, anyone ever considered the possibility that the Cosmos with its myriad galaxies, stars, planets, entities, etc., macro to micro, along with the ever intra and inter penetration and exchange of energies and fields, known and unknown, constitute as an integrated whole, the ONE archetypal MIND?

My perspective is that that mind is an integral part of the Cosmos but I hesitate to conclude that the cosmos constitutes the mind. Inanitmate objects do not have a mind, but our mind knows inanimate objects, so mind is a part within the cosmos. Both inanimate and animate are perceived by the mind and senses as seperate but both have a single foundation/source which is the nondual consciousness (according to Vedanta).

 

[TurkeyOnRye]

BTW, anyone ever considered the possibility that the Cosmos with its myriad galaxies, stars, planets, entities, etc., macro to micro, along with the ever intra and inter penetration and exchange of energies and fields, known and unknown, constitute as an integrated whole, the ONE archetypal MIND?

Yes, but the question is what impact does the "unknown" have on the preceeding once it is revealed?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

My perspective is that that mind is an integral part of the Cosmos but I hesitate to conclude that the cosmos constitutes the mind. Inanitmate objects do not have a mind, but our mind knows inanimate objects, so mind is a part within the cosmos. Both inanimate and animate are perceived by the mind and senses as seperate but both have a single foundation/source which is the nondual consciousness (according to Vedanta).

What level of consciousness determines what is animate and what is inanimate? Is the human mind constituted of any inanimate 'objects' (presumably some imagine atoms to be inanimate,..i.e.devoid of stuff of consciousness)?

These are merely rhetorical questions since dualistic labeling of differentiated aspects of the ONE that is ALL dichotomizes forever, and TRUTH is NOW.

Nothing and everything can be found in the mind, but it is all illusion, however that is not to imply the MIND itself is illusion!

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Yes, but the question is what impact does the "unknown" have on the preceeding once it is revealed?

Again, once the mind goes looking for dichotomized abstracted aspects of the ONE MIND such as knowns and unknowns, it is chattering away which prevents it from realizing its own underlying true nature, the One Mind doesn't do anything except maintain the everlasting Peace that is beyond conceptual understanding.

Concerning enlightenment, the only realization to be had is that what is to be realized always was, is, and always will be.

 

[Onkara]

Good argument Ben
I agree with the last two paragraphs. Mind is not an illusion. I would say there is no illusion, only misunderstanding.

I do not subscribe to there being any levels of consciousness. Consciousness is singular and is the foundation on/in which all arises, including mind. Mind is material, as mind comes with body, it is changed or influenced by drugs and alcohol.

 

[YmirGF]

I do not subscribe to there being any levels of consciousness. Consciousness is singular and is the foundation on/in which all arises, including mind. Mind is material, as mind comes with body, it is changed or influenced by drugs and alcohol.

This conversation is rather like that of one by blind people describing colour.

 

[Onkara]

This conversation is rather like that of one by blind people describing colour.

In that case you and I must be colour.

I would be interested in your perspective if you wish to expand.