Real believers and war

[Remté]

It's thrown about a lot here that religions cause wars and that's why it would be better if there were no religions.

But this completely ignores the vanity of man's mind.

1)People will find a reason to have war no matter what.
2)Those who justify war with religion unfairly are not real believers. It is wrong of them to claim to be so, but it is equally ignorant of one to imagine or claim that they are so.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Personally i would never take part in a war

 

[Sirona]

IThose who justify war with religion unfairly are not real believers. It is wrong of them to claim to be so, but it is equally ignorant of one to imagine or claim that they are so.

1. You might want to reconsider that once you've read the Koran. And I mean reading it A-Z, not gathering bits and pieces from secondary sources.

2. Due to the subjective aspect in religion, if you ask any believer of any religion I guess most will say that they themselves are the real believers so an outside party considering whether the concerned are the "real believers" is a futile exercice

 

[Remté]

1. You might want to reconsider that once you've read the Koran. And I mean reading it A-Z, not gathering bits and pieces from secondary sources.

What is your concern in it?

 

[Augustus]

1)People will find a reason to have war no matter what.

True

2)Those who justify war with religion unfairly are not real believers. It is wrong of them to claim to be so, but it is equally ignorant of one to imagine or claim that they are so.

If humans will always find a reason to have a war, why can one of these reasons not be 'genuine religious belief that supports war'?

Surely if we are violent by nature this must have some degree of overlap with deeply held beliefs like religions.

 

[Remté]

True



If humans will always find a reason to have a war, why can one of these reasons not be 'genuine religious belief that supports war'?

Surely if we are violent by nature this must have some degree of overlap with deeply held beliefs like religions.

Well if you consider something like satanism religion then maybe yes. But I am mainly concerned by such ideas regarding the major religions in the world. And in those cases I don't think that is possible.

 

[Augustus]

Well if you consider something like satanism religion then maybe yes. But I am mainly concerned by such ideas regarding the major religions in the world. And in those cases I don't think that is possible.

Why not? It's not really too difficult to identify how a Muslim, Christian, Jew or Hindu might see justification for conflict from writing their religious texts.

Jihad has been a core part of Islam since its early days for example:

The effective halting of the Jihad-and, even worse, the reversal of the offensive into Muslim territory-must have posed an unprecedented crisis for the Faithful. The Jihad, a central tenet of the faith, one which had constituted the main focus of the Caliphate's endeavours from the very beginning of the Islamic polity, had fallen into abeyance. Obviously, the resulting moral and mili-tary vacuum at the frontier could not last-and, indeed, it did not. What has been termed "the Jihad State" may have ended, but the Jihad itself did not; it simply became what we today would call "privatized;" that is, it went from cen-trally directed state campaigns to independent, non-governmentally controlled, smaller scale raids led and manned by mutatawwia, volunteer warriors for the faith. This transferral of religious leadership in the Jihad, from the caliph to the mutatawwia, in turn led to truly fundamental changes in all areas of Islamic civilization.

Religiously, the mutatawwi'a movement brought about a revolution regarding the proper role of the political authorities in the Jihad... There was a deep ideological conflict expressed in these two opposing views: namely, do political leaders have religious control over the Jihad, or is it, rather, a religious obligation in which any believer may engage at any time-as he is entitled to do with, say, the giving of alms-irrespective of the political authority. It was the latter view, the view of the mutatawwi'a, which won (at least in 'Iraq), and was eventually adopted by both the Shafi'ite and Hanbalite schools.

The ramifications of this mutatawwi' victory were immense. Again in the religious sphere, the early mutatawwi'a played a decisive role in the consolidation of Sunnism-and particularly Hanbalism-in the decades around the turn of the third Hijri century. The mutatawwi' emphasis on the individual responsibilities of the believer before God-particularly concerning the Jihad-and on guidance by the Prophetic Sunna weakened the religious role of the Caliph, and marked, if not the beginning, certainly one of the most significant steps in the process Crone and Hinds have described as the transition from Caliphal to Prophetic sunna, and also accords well with the timeline they present.24 Thus, the mutatawwi'a, the militant arm of the proto-Sunni Traditionists, played a significant role in Sunnism's victory through the religious prestige they acquired in their role in leading the Jihad...

The rise of the mutatawwi'a, and the significance of their victory in reshaping the Jihad, was not limited to the religious sphere, though; it was fraught with pol-itical consequences as well. Jihad had traditionally lain at the heart of the Muslim polity from the time of the Prophet; the very first governmental organization, the diwan, had been an outcome of this focus on bringing God's rule to the Dar al-Harb. The fact that the Jihad now passed largely out of governmental hands meant that a major factor in the religious identification of Islam with the government was removed. More importantly, since the nongovernmental mutatawwi view of the Jihad was part of a complete religious outlook regarding the relative worth of the contemporaneous imamate compared to that of the Prophet and the early Muslims as preserved by the Traditionists, the undermining effect that the mutatawwi'i victory in the Jihad had upon the caliph's religious standing and authority was not and could not be limited to that one religious area. Rather, once the question of who would wield religious authority in Islam had been settled in favor of the Traditionists-in no small part, thanks to the prestige of the mutatawwi'a caliphal religious stature and authority crumbled, with political authority and power soon following in their wake.

Privatized Jihad and Public Order in the Pre-Seljuq Period: The Role of the Mutatawwi'a, Deborah Tor, Iranian Studies, Vol. 38, No. 4 (Dec., 2005), pp. 555-573

 

[Remté]

Why not? It's not really too difficult to identify how a Muslim, Christian, Jew or Hindu might see justification for conflict from writing their religious texts.

Jihad has been a core part of Islam since its early days for example:

What do you think Jihad means?

 

[Augustus]

What do you think Jihad means?

It has more than one meaning, but one meaning is fighting in the cause of Islam.

 

[Faithofchristian]

It's thrown about a lot here that religions cause wars and that's why it would be better if there were no religions.

But this completely ignores the vanity of man's mind.

1)People will find a reason to have war no matter what.
2)Those who justify war with religion unfairly are not real believers. It is wrong of them to claim to be so, but it is equally ignorant of one to imagine or claim that they are so.

If people would take World 1 and World 2.
Which had nothing at all do with religion.

But however there is one country in the world that's always trying to suppress people into believing their religion and that religion is Islam Muslims.

Look around any where and every where you find the religion of Islam Muslims there soon is an out break that will lead to war, all because people do not want no part of Islam religion.
But yet Muslims keep trying to force their religion on others.

Ok, so I'm a Christian, whosoever do not want to be a Christian, that's them to make that decision for themselves and not mine. But turn and walk the other way.
This I found out about alot of Christian, that they don't know when to shut their mouths and walk the other way, when ask not to say anything more.

Nope they just keep going back until finally the other person has had enough and knock them up side their heads, Which the Christian deserved for not shutting their mouths and walk the other way.

Christ Jesus taught this in turn the other cheek. When a Christian keeps talking, when the other person tells them they don't want to hear nothing more
But the Christian rather than shut their mouths and walk away.
Nope the Christian keeps right on talking to finally the other person hits them

Now seeing that the Christian deserved it.
Now turn the other cheek, so that person can hit you again for not shutting their mouths when ask to.

Many Christians are taught in their churches, turning the other cheek, means that if your being hit on for no reason at all, Now turn the other cheek so that person can hit your other cheek.
Which is totally nonsense.

If a person came up to me to hit for no reason, That person I will club them back.
Just because I'm a Christian does not mean that I suppose to let people beat on me for no reason.
I will definitely hit back to defend myself.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

It's thrown about a lot here that religions cause wars and that's why it would be better if there were no religions.

But this completely ignores the vanity of man's mind.

1)People will find a reason to have war no matter what.
2)Those who justify war with religion unfairly are not real believers. It is wrong of them to claim to be so, but it is equally ignorant of one to imagine or claim that they are so.

Real believers of WHAT exactly?
Cos some 'real believers' are sure as heck ready to kill.
I'm happy for you to explain why that belief makes me ignorant...I'd just caution you that I'm not unread, or an echo chamber.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

If people would take World 1 and World 2.
Which had nothing at all do with religion.

But however there is one country in the world that's always trying to suppress people into believing their religion and that religion is Islam Muslims.

Look around any where and every where you find the religion of Islam Muslims there soon is an out break that will lead to war, all because people do not want no part of Islam religion.
But yet Muslims keep trying to force their religion on others.

Ok, so I'm a Christian, whosoever do not want to be a Christian, that's them to make that decision for themselves and not mine. But turn and walk the other way.
This I found out about alot of Christian, that they don't know when to shut their mouths and walk the other way.

Nope they just keep going back until finally the other person has had enough and knock them up side their heads, Which the Christian deserved for not shutting their mouths and walk the other way.

Christ Jesus taught this in turn the other cheek. When a Christian keeps talking, when the other person tells them they don't want to hear nothing more
But the Christian rather than shut their mouths and walk away.
Nope the Christian keeps right on talking to finally the other person hits them

Now seeing that the Christian deserved it.
Now turn the other cheek, so that person can hit you again for not shutting their mouths when ask to.

Many Christians are taught in their churches, turning the other cheek, means that if your being hit on for no reason at all, Now turn the other cheek so that person can hit your other cheek.
Which is totally nonsense.

If a person came up to me to hit for no reason, That person I will club them back.
Just because I'm a Christian does not mean that I suppose to let people beat on me for no reason.
I will definitely hit back to defend myself.

So...just baby steps, but have you dealt with Quranists before?
Much as there is variety in Christianity, so too is there variance amongst Islamic beliefs...

 

[Faithofchristian]

So...just baby steps, but have you dealt with Quranists before?
Much as there is variety in Christianity, so too is there variance amongst Islamic beliefs...

How many Muslims of Islam do you know that does not go by or follow what their Qu'ran teaches. Or their Prophet Muhammad teaches in the Qu'ran.
Any Muslim that is a true Muslim will follow what their prophet Muhammad teaches in the Qu'ran.
You can not be a true Muslim and not follow what Prophet Muhammad teaches in the Qu'ran.

Now to answer your question, yes I have many times.dealt with Muslims, As for some unknown reason, Muslims thinks they know the Christian bible better than the Christian do themselves, until the Muslim comes across a Christian as myself. Then the Muslim soon realizes, that were not like other Christians, and backs away.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Those who justify war with religion unfairly are not real believers.

Most of them seem pretty sincere to me.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

How many Muslims of Islam do you know that does not go by or follow what their Qu'ran teaches. Or their Prophet Muhammad teaches in the Qu'ran.
Any Muslim that is a true Muslim will follow what their prophet Muhammad teaches in the Qu'ran.
You can not be a true Muslim and not follow what Prophet Muhammad teaches in the Qu'ran.

Now to answer your question, yes I have many times.dealt with Muslims, As for some unknown reason, Muslims thinks they know the Christian bible better than the Christian do themselves, until the Muslim comes across a Christian as myself. Then the Muslim soon realizes, that I'm not like other Christians, and backs away.

Yeah...so...my question was about Quranists, and whether you understood there was variance amongst Muslims.

Perhaps you don't, based on this.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Yeah...so...my question was about Quranists, and whether you understood there was variance amongst Muslims.

Perhaps you don't, based on this.

It's like I said, To be a true Muslim of Islam will follow the teachings of Prophet Muhammad in the Qu'ran.

You can not be a true Muslim of Islam and denounce Prophet Muhammad teaches in the Qu'ran it will not work in Islam.

Tell you how to really find out, go over in Iran and go about denouncing Prophet Muhammad teaches in the Qu'ran, tell you what your be lucky to walk away alive.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

It's like I said, To be a true Muslim of Islam will follow the teachings of Prophet Muhammad in the Qu'ran.

You can not be a true Muslim of Islam and denounce Prophet Muhammad teaches in the Qu'ran it will not work in Islam.

You're still not answering. I don't think youre avoiding, just that you lack understanding. What do you know about the hadiths?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

1)People will find a reason to have war no matter what.

Sure. But would you accept that as a reason for why we shouldn't oppose for example facism?

2)Those who justify war with religion unfairly are not real believers. It is wrong of them to claim to be so, but it is equally ignorant of one to imagine or claim that they are so.

Define "unfairly".
Preferably in a way that it is not just your personal opinion.

 

[Augustus]

Any Muslim that is a true Muslim will follow what their prophet Muhammad teaches in the Qu'ran.
You can not be a true Muslim and not follow what Prophet Muhammad teaches in the Qu'ran.

Interpretations of these are quite diverse though, and what they believe the key teachings of Muhammad are will often differ significantly from what you believe they are...

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

If people would take World 1 and World 2.
Which had nothing at all do with religion.

But however there is one country in the world that's always trying to suppress people into believing their religion and that religion is Islam Muslims.

Look around any where and every where you find the religion of Islam Muslims there soon is an out break that will lead to war, all because people do not want no part of Islam religion.
But yet Muslims keep trying to force their religion on others.

Ok, so I'm a Christian, whosoever do not want to be a Christian, that's them to make that decision for themselves and not mine. But turn and walk the other way.
This I found out about alot of Christian, that they don't know when to shut their mouths and walk the other way, when ask not to say anything more.

Nope they just keep going back until finally the other person has had enough and knock them up side their heads, Which the Christian deserved for not shutting their mouths and walk the other way.

Christ Jesus taught this in turn the other cheek. When a Christian keeps talking, when the other person tells them they don't want to hear nothing more
But the Christian rather than shut their mouths and walk away.
Nope the Christian keeps right on talking to finally the other person hits them

Now seeing that the Christian deserved it.
Now turn the other cheek, so that person can hit you again for not shutting their mouths when ask to.

Many Christians are taught in their churches, turning the other cheek, means that if your being hit on for no reason at all, Now turn the other cheek so that person can hit your other cheek.
Which is totally nonsense.

If a person came up to me to hit for no reason, That person I will club them back.
Just because I'm a Christian does not mean that I suppose to let people beat on me for no reason.
I will definitely hit back to defend myself.

It must be nice living in this 21st century secular world where you as a christian can claim the high ground while completely ignoring how christians behaved and ruled for some 1700 years.