1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Reading the Bible again and have some questions

Discussion in 'Christianity DIR' started by Deidre, Aug 19, 2017.

  1. outlawState

    outlawState Deism is dead

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2017
    Messages:
    571
    Ratings:
    +82
    Religion:
    Universal Protestant
    According to Oxford English Dictionary

    Sin comes from

    Old English synn (noun), syngian (verb); probably related to Latin sons, sont- ‘guilty’.

    I don't think we are born "without God," It is God who "breathed life into Adam." The number of days every person lives is ordained by God.
    I agree that justification could only come by God.
     
  2. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2009
    Messages:
    48,775
    Ratings:
    +4,891
    I don't equate the 'breath of God'.....to that of His Presence

    (at best)
    at birth we are delivered into the arms of someone who cares

    this life is like finding your way home

    and I don't think we are born guilty
     
  3. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2013
    Messages:
    37,286
    Ratings:
    +18,364
    Religion:
    ecumenical & naturalistic Catholic
    I don't take the Fall accounts literally but as more likely an allegorical narrative fashioned by a Jewish reworking of a much larger Babylonian epic. All cultures pretty much do this, and it was a way of showing that the original narrative (Babylonian in this case) was wrong and the Jewish reworking of it is the one that's correct.

    Now I see where our paradigm differs that led to our disconnect.
     
  4. outlawState

    outlawState Deism is dead

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2017
    Messages:
    571
    Ratings:
    +82
    Religion:
    Universal Protestant
    The "presence of God" is of course appropriated by faith. "And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." Matt 28;20.

    That is different from being called up to heaven, which is a special treat reserved for the chosen. But all men live and exist in the presence of God, for sure, whether we appropriate his presence by faith or not.

    You are not born guilty but you definitely become guilty. That much is unavoidable.
     
  5. outlawState

    outlawState Deism is dead

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2017
    Messages:
    571
    Ratings:
    +82
    Religion:
    Universal Protestant
    At the very least, it relates the tale that even monotheists will sin, left to their own devices and placed in a paradise. It also provides a timeframe for dating the advent of monotheism to the Sumerian period. But we also have to take note of religion undergoing major transformations during this period (Noah, Tower of Babel etc). I have to say I am not an expert on this at all. Abram came from Ur, an important Sumerian city-state, which is clearly historical.
     
  6. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2009
    Messages:
    48,775
    Ratings:
    +4,891
    equivalent to being a sinner?

    and then of course...the Carpenter's fate....
    He would be counted among transgressors
     
  7. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2013
    Messages:
    37,286
    Ratings:
    +18,364
    Religion:
    ecumenical & naturalistic Catholic
    The Sumerians were polytheists, and I covered them in two lectures, including using pictures of artifacts to demonstrate their deities in my intro to anthro course.

    According to Genesis, Abraham was a polytheist until his conversion to become a believer in "the God of Abraham". It's virtually impossible for us today to authenticate the story but we definitely know that Ur existed.
     
  8. outlawState

    outlawState Deism is dead

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2017
    Messages:
    571
    Ratings:
    +82
    Religion:
    Universal Protestant
    What's equivalence got to do with it? One sin = sinner.
     
  9. outlawState

    outlawState Deism is dead

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2017
    Messages:
    571
    Ratings:
    +82
    Religion:
    Universal Protestant
    The Sumerian period lasted from circa 5500BC to circa 2000BC. That is an incredibly long period by any standard. To describe them as "polytheists" would be true, as to the city state religion, but was it an exclusive religion, or were there other religions too? I think only the bible will us that.

    You just can't identify every religion in a place from the national religion. What is the religion of the USA? Deism one might say, if going by government, but it could not exclude many others. I should think that would apply to Sumer too.
     
  10. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2013
    Messages:
    37,286
    Ratings:
    +18,364
    Religion:
    ecumenical & naturalistic Catholic
    Usually within most polytheistic societies that we know of, there tends to be regional favorites when it comes to deities. Sumer was not likely large enough or populated enough to have different religions, and since they had writing we do know quite a bit of what they believed in, especially in the latter periods.

    Also, religions tend to evolve, so we don't expect the latter years to be exactly like the earlier years. Frankly, I don't know or recall when their literate period started.
     
  11. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2009
    Messages:
    48,775
    Ratings:
    +4,891
    does it apply to all....?
    Carpenter included?
     
  12. outlawState

    outlawState Deism is dead

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2017
    Messages:
    571
    Ratings:
    +82
    Religion:
    Universal Protestant
    Of course
     
  13. Dantedeven

    Dantedeven Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2017
    Messages:
    153
    Ratings:
    +33
    Religion:
    Heterodox
    Forth from dust everything was brought forth by God, and into that same dust everything shall return by God.
    Except the light, the light shall not return to dust and neither will God turn into dust, and maybe the spirit too, but i don't know that for certain.
    But yeah, the earth was nonexistant without labor, thus empty, and the formation of earth was fierce, and since there was no earth yet, the abyss was indeed very dark. And everyone says that the sun was before the earth was, but they actually mean that the sun was before the earth's formation was.
     
  14. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2009
    Messages:
    48,775
    Ratings:
    +4,891
    so the Carpenter was born a sinner?

    not many believe that
     
  15. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2018
    Messages:
    9,858
    Ratings:
    +2,922
    Religion:
    Follower of Christ
    I'm not sure what led the translators to this conclusion.
    From my reading of various scriptures, they seem to help us understand how Moses could have gotten his information.
    2 Peter 1:21
    2 Timothy 3:16
    There are a number of text that seem to show this. For example, the book of Job - the meeting of the sons of God, in heaven; the rebellious angels leaving their place to take women from the earth...

    What comment do the translators make in their footnotes, on how Job knew of these and other things?
     
  16. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2005
    Messages:
    3,793
    Ratings:
    +758
    Religion:
    Bible Believer
    The planet was formless in that there was no land. It was a water planet. Later, the waters were split, half taken to form a canopy of water vapor around the earth, which was later used for the flood. For further explanation on the first chapter of Genesis, go to Genesis Chapter 1
     
  17. jhwatts

    jhwatts Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2008
    Messages:
    120
    Ratings:
    +14
    To understand Genesis a person should understand how the writer placed details about events in the text. Its not meant to always be read verse to verse. For example. Go to Genesis 10: (1-10). The detail for this event occurs later at Genesis 11: (1-9).

    It was not uncommon for the author to mention an event and describe its content later in another chapter. Knowing this we can now, go back to Genesis 1:1 and we see the detail belonging to Genesis 1:1 begins occurs later in Genesis 2:4 and goes through Genesis 4:26. Many things happened during this time. The fall of man and Lucifer, etc. The earth was damaged and flooded, etc. We see the reconstruction beginning in 1:2. This why this Adam was told to replenish the earth in Genesis 1:27. The first creation was destroyed. This goes on and on. This why the genealogy in Genesis 4 has no ages or time associated with them. They had open access to the tree of life. The genealogies in Genesis 5 didn't and so they now age. To view the creation of the world go to Job 38. See Genesis 2:5 and Job 38:26. You will similar language in Job and the first creation. Notice through out Job, Job and his so called friends all admit to being made from the clay or earth. The form and void was due to things that transpired early on in earths past.
     
    #57 jhwatts, Aug 10, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2018
Loading...