• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Reading in the right order

Tumah

Veteran Member
Imagine you unknowingly read a fan-fiction about a world in the Star Wars universe.

In this world, father is a colloquial term not just for a parent, but also a grandparent. One day, you go back and watch the original Star Wars. In the movie, Darth Vader says to Luke Skywalker "Luke it is true. I am your father."

Now, since you didn't know that what you read was a fan-fiction and not authentic Star Wars franchise, you may at that point stop and wonder to yourself, "Hmm... Does he mean his actual father, or grandfather?" (I don't know if at some other point in the story this is made clear, but let's just assume not for the purpose of the example.)

Is there anyone in who would argue that the creators of Star Wars had in mind the colloquial use of the word father fabricated by the fan-fiction when they wrote that script? Of course not.

This is another reason why Judaism cannot accept the Christian Testament.

Reading the Tanach in it's own light, leaves absolutely no reason to assume that the Christian Testament would ever be written. In fact, in many cases, it causes a person to expect that it wouldn't be written.

That would be like the fan-fiction world describing Luke Skywalker as Darth Vader's father! After reading Moses' plea to see G-d's face being rejected on the grounds that no man can see G-d's face, would you expect to see G-d take human form and allow any person to see His face? After reading about G-d's dissimilarity to humans and Moses' warning the Israelites that they did not see any sort of image of G-d, would you expect G-d to become human? After reading about how the Commandments of G-d would be everlasting, would you expect G-d to simply do away with them? Etc., etc.

But that aside, simply reading through the Tanach would give you absolutely no reason to ever come to the conclusion of a Jesus.

And this tells you that the "hundreds" of prophecies about Jesus are nothing more than eisegetic re-interpretations - often divested of their original context. And that makes the Christian Testament's relationship to Tanach about the equivalent of Chuck Tingle's fan-fiction of the Harry Potter universe.
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
Imagine you unknowingly read a fan-fiction about a world in the Star Wars universe.

In this world, father is a colloquial term not just for a parent, but also a grandparent. One day, you go back and watch the original Star Wars. In the movie, Darth Vader says to Luke Skywalker "Luke it is true. I am your father."

Now, since you didn't know that what you read was a fan-fiction and not authentic Star Wars franchise, you may at that point stop and wonder to yourself, "Hmm... Does he mean his actual father, or grandfather?" (I don't know if at some other point in the story this is made clear, but let's just assume not for the purpose of the example.)

Is there anyone in who would argue that the creators of Star Wars had in mind the colloquial use of the word father fabricated by the fan-fiction when they wrote that script? Of course not.

This is another reason why Judaism cannot accept the Christian Testament.

Reading the Tanach in it's own light, leaves absolutely no reason to assume that the Christian Testament would ever be written. In fact, in many cases, it causes a person to expect that it wouldn't be written.

That would be like the fan-fiction world describing Luke Skywalker as Darth Vader's father! After reading Moses' plea to see G-d's face being rejected on the grounds that no man can see G-d's face, would you expect to see G-d take human form and allow any person to see His face? After reading about G-d's dissimilarity to humans and Moses' warning the Israelites that they did not see any sort of image of G-d, would you expect G-d to become human? After reading about how the Commandments of G-d would be everlasting, would you expect G-d to simply do away with them? Etc., etc.

But that aside, simply reading through the Tanach would give you absolutely no reason to ever come to the conclusion of a Jesus.

And this tells you that the "hundreds" of prophecies about Jesus are nothing more than eisegetic re-interpretations - often divested of their original context. And that makes the Christian Testament's relationship to Tanach about the equivalent of Chuck Tingle's fan-fiction of the Harry Potter universe.
If God wanted people to know beforehand he would have made it all quite clear. If people had known before then so would Satan and those who killed Jesus. Then no one would kill Jesus because they would know it would just help him. So, they couldn't know or else it wouldn't happen and the new Testament never makes it a secret that all of this was in fact a secret beforehand but only finally revealed by the holy Spirit.

That's why Jesus says to his disciples

"For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them."

So then even though the prophets and kings often spoke of Jesus in their prophecies and Psalms ... yet they didn't know what they were even talking about because they spoke by the holy Spirit. The time would come when Jesus would be revealed to the world but until then He was hidden "with God" as it says in John 1:1 the Word was with God.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
But that aside, simply reading through the Tanach would give you absolutely no reason to ever come to the conclusion of a Jesus.

And this tells you that the "hundreds" of prophecies about Jesus are nothing more than eisegetic re-interpretations - often divested of their original context. And that makes the Christian Testament's relationship to Tanach about the equivalent of Chuck Tingle's fan-fiction of the Harry Potter universe.
I agree with it, 100%.
Especially because...Monsignor Poma once said : "The Christian event is an unexpected event. "So I don't see why there should be trace in the AT.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
In this world, father is a colloquial term not just for a parent, but also a grandparent. One day, you go back and watch the original Star Wars. In the movie, Darth Vader says to Luke Skywalker "Luke it is true. I am your father."
....

And this tells you that the "hundreds" of prophecies about Jesus are nothing more than eisegetic re-interpretations - often divested of their original context. And that makes the Christian Testament's relationship to Tanach about the equivalent of Chuck Tingle's fan-fiction of the Harry Potter universe.

These two paragraphs are right on point because "Luke it is true. I am your father" makes a great point, it's not the iconic star wars line but a re-interpretation. It was never spoken. Star wars trivia, the actual words spoken by Darth Vader were "No. I am your father".
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
If God wanted people to know beforehand he would have made it all quite clear. If people had known before then so would Satan and those who killed Jesus. Then no one would kill Jesus because they would know it would just help him. So, they couldn't know or else it wouldn't happen and the new Testament never makes it a secret that all of this was in fact a secret beforehand but only finally revealed by the holy Spirit.

That's why Jesus says to his disciples

"For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them."

So then even though the prophets and kings often spoke of Jesus in their prophecies and Psalms ... yet they didn't know what they were even talking about because they spoke by the holy Spirit. The time would come when Jesus would be revealed to the world but until then He was hidden "with God" as it says in John 1:1 the Word was with God.
This is a pretty weak response that comes across more as a post hoc rationalization.

It also doesn't even remotely address the entire problem. As an example, there's nothing in "You shall have no other gods before Me, the Father, My Son and My Holy Spirit" would in any way negate the possibility for Jesus being killed. "There shall come a time, where these commandments shall not be of important, rather you shall have faith in My Son whom I shall send to you, and he shall be your salvation from hell". See how nothing in that prophecy would tell us who Jesus really is and by extension not prevent his death at anyone's hands?

Also, if "they didn't even know what they were talking about", then their words would make no sense outside the context of the NT. But that's not the case anywhere. That being the case, this means that the Tanach doesn't support the Christian Testament anymore than the original supports a fanfiction.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
That answers 3/4 of the OP.
Of course, it also removes any Tanach-support for the Christian Testament's narrative or existence.
I can perfectly relate, @Tumah :):heart:
Especially when we Christians are asked to consider the idea of "post-Jesus" prophets...you know...some prophet from the seventh century...:p
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
I think that he leaves open to interpretation what the parts of the NT are originally for and who by.
Good to have plausible deniability ;)

I think I’ve remembered the inappropriate dad joke. Something about religion being the fan fiction of the schizophrenic. Or something to that fact.





I’ll see myself out before I say more to get myself in trouble
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
I agree with @Tumah that from a Jewish perspective there's nothing that Christians can point to.

But I'm also reminded of how the South found justification for slavery in the Bible and the North found the opposite.

So I also agree that Christians find evidence for Jesus as well in those very passages.

I'm not writing about who is right but about how human nature works. I'll let others debate which viewpoint is more supportable based on the text.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
I agree with @Tumah that from a Jewish perspective there's nothing that Christians can point to.

But I'm also reminded of how the South found justification for slavery in the Bible and the North found the opposite.

So I also agree that Christians find evidence for Jesus as well in those very passages.

I'm not writing about who is right but about how human nature works. I'll let others debate which viewpoint is more supportable based on the text.
The point of the OP is exactly to address this point: when you can only find "evidence" for something by reading it backward, it stops being evidence and starts to be an interpolation.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
The point of the OP is exactly to address this point: when you can only find "evidence" for something by reading it backward, it stops being evidence and starts to be an interpolation.

I am not in any way religious and have not read Tanach but have read several bibles. Hearing christians making contortionist links, shipping back and forth has lead me to refer to the practice as the christian or biblical time machine.
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
Good to have plausible deniability ;)

I think I’ve remembered the inappropriate dad joke. Something about religion being the fan fiction of the schizophrenic. Or something to that fact.





I’ll see myself out before I say more to get myself in trouble
:)You're not causing trouble, and Tumah is actually drawing a very moderate line with his post. He's not commenting on the NT as a smattering of little books by various authors and genres. In that sense he seems to find some curiosity about them, and I gather that he has read them. What he rejects is "Its all one book" and "Its to be the capstone of Jewish scripture" and "Jesus is your king." He hasn't been visceral or angry, hasn't denounced Christianity or put forward a conspiracy theory. Tumah'd be doing the world a disservice to endorse missionary Christianity or the NT as a book unless he agreed with it. Its better that he puts his weight behind what he thinks and lets the world come to terms with it.

Star Wars is an interesting comparison with Judaism sometimes. Its got the light and dark side of the force, and there is repentance and forgiveness. There are those highly disciplined Jedi who spent their lives seeking to connect to the force and so forth. They're religionists, and they oppose ignorance and war. Opposite them are the normal people who are neither Jedi nor Sith, and then there are the Sith who are overwhelmed with anger, fear, hate.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
...Reading the Tanach in it's own light, leaves absolutely no reason to assume that the Christian Testament would ever be written. In fact, in many cases, it causes a person to expect that it wouldn't be written.

I don't believe you have even read the New Testament.

...After reading Moses' plea to see G-d's face being rejected on the grounds that no man can see G-d's face, would you expect to see G-d take human form and allow any person to see His face?

Does the Bible tell God took human form? Please show the scripture where that is said?

...After reading about G-d's dissimilarity to humans and Moses' warning the Israelites that they did not see any sort of image of G-d, would you expect G-d to become human?

Please show the scripture in the Bible that tells God became human?

...But that aside, simply reading through the Tanach would give you absolutely no reason to ever come to the conclusion of a Jesus...

Tanakh has this promise:

Yahweh your God will circumcise your heart, and the heart of your seed, to love Yahweh your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, that you may live. Yahweh your God will put all these curses on your enemies, and on those who hate you, who persecuted you. You shall return and obey the voice of Yahweh, and do all his commandments which I command you this day. Yahweh your God will make you plenteous in all the work of your hand, in the fruit of your body, and in the fruit of your cattle, and in the fruit of your ground, for good: for Yahweh will again rejoice over you for good, as he rejoiced over your fathers;
Deuteronomy 30:6-9

That new covenant was established through Jesus.

For finding fault with them, he said, "Behold, the days come," says the Lord, "That I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah; Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers, In the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; For they didn't continue in my covenant, And I disregarded them," says the Lord. "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel. After those days," says the Lord; "I will put my laws into their mind, I will also write them on their heart. I will be to them a God, And they will be to me a people. They will not teach every man his fellow citizen, Every man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' For all will know me, From the least of them to the greatest of them. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness. I will remember their sins and lawless deeds no more."
Hebrews 8:8-12 (Jeremiah 31:31-34)

Do you think Jeremiah is valid?

Who do you think is the lord of David that sits on the right hand of God?

Yahweh says to my Lord, "Sit at my right hand, Until I make your enemies your footstool for your feet."
Ps. 110:1
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
I don't believe you have even read the New Testament.
I have not. But I've read passages here and there as they were relevant.

Does the Bible tell God took human form? Please show the scripture where that is said?
That is classical Christian belief, yeah?


Please show the scripture in the Bible that tells God became human?
That is classical Christian belief, yeah?

Tanakh has this promise:

Yahweh your God will circumcise your heart, and the heart of your seed, to love Yahweh your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, that you may live. Yahweh your God will put all these curses on your enemies, and on those who hate you, who persecuted you. You shall return and obey the voice of Yahweh, and do all his commandments which I command you this day. Yahweh your God will make you plenteous in all the work of your hand, in the fruit of your body, and in the fruit of your cattle, and in the fruit of your ground, for good: for Yahweh will again rejoice over you for good, as he rejoiced over your fathers;
Deuteronomy 30:6-9

That new covenant was established through Jesus.
There is nothing in that passage that points to Jesus.

For finding fault with them, he said, "Behold, the days come," says the Lord, "That I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah; Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers, In the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; For they didn't continue in my covenant, And I disregarded them," says the Lord. "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel. After those days," says the Lord; "I will put my laws into their mind, I will also write them on their heart. I will be to them a God, And they will be to me a people. They will not teach every man his fellow citizen, Every man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' For all will know me, From the least of them to the greatest of them. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness. I will remember their sins and lawless deeds no more."
Hebrews 8:8-12 (Jeremiah 31:31-34)

Do you think Jeremiah is valid?
Jeremiah did not describe a covenant with new content, but a covenant with the same content that would accessed in a new way.

Who do you think is the lord of David that sits on the right hand of God?

Yahweh says to my Lord, "Sit at my right hand, Until I make your enemies your footstool for your feet."
Ps. 110:1
The lord is David. It's not David who's talking.[/quote]
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
:)You're not causing trouble, and Tumah is actually drawing a very moderate line with his post. He's not commenting on the NT as a smattering of little books by various authors and genres. In that sense he seems to find some curiosity about them, and I gather that he has read them. What he rejects is "Its all one book" and "Its to be the capstone of Jewish scripture" and "Jesus is your king." He hasn't been visceral or angry, hasn't denounced Christianity or put forward a conspiracy theory. Tumah'd be doing the world a disservice to endorse missionary Christianity or the NT as a book unless he agreed with it. Its better that he puts his weight behind what he thinks and lets the world come to terms with it.

Star Wars is an interesting comparison with Judaism sometimes. Its got the light and dark side of the force, and there is repentance and forgiveness. There are those highly disciplined Jedi who spent their lives seeking to connect to the force and so forth. They're religionists, and they oppose ignorance and war. Opposite them are the normal people who are neither Jedi nor Sith, and then there are the Sith who are overwhelmed with anger, fear, hate.
Darn, I’ll have to try harder then ;)

Hey man, if Jews accepted Jesus wouldn’t they just be Christians? They didn’t so they remain Jewish. Ain’t no skin off my nose. Everyone is entitled to their beliefs. This all just looks like a bit of sibling rivalry to me.

Interesting Star Wars comparison though. And I can see why it’s applicable.

I did always feel like the force was like if the strict black and white Abrahamics interpreted Eastern philosophy. A representation of good and evil using many differing filters.
 

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
Is there anyone in who would argue that the creators of Star Wars had in mind the colloquial use of the word father fabricated by the fan-fiction when they wrote that script? Of course not.

Well I'm not sure.. they could have been thinking that he was like the 'archetypal father,' ala jordan peterson ... which is sort of like the father that covers all fathers

That would be like the fan-fiction world describing Luke Skywalker as Darth Vader's father!

you lost me here

I kind of think all the biblical texts are sort of equally mysterious and open-ended, so it's hard to see which way the river is running . It's describing things from thousands of years ago I tend to think we should have far newer testaments ,

as time continues it's harder to relate to things that eventually ancient
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
Darn, I’ll have to try harder then ;)

Hey man, if Jews accepted Jesus wouldn’t they just be Christians? They didn’t so they remain Jewish. Ain’t no skin off my nose. Everyone is entitled to their beliefs. This all just looks like a bit of sibling rivalry to me.

Interesting Star Wars comparison though. And I can see why it’s applicable.

I did always feel like the force was like if the strict black and white Abrahamics interpreted Eastern philosophy. A representation of good and evil using many differing filters.
They do accept Jesus but not like some people would prefer. They consider him a fellow Jew and his arguments are considered. If they said he wasnt Jewish that would be rejection.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
They do accept Jesus but not like some people would prefer. They consider him a fellow Jew and his arguments are considered. If they said he wasnt Jewish that would be rejection.
So all the Christians who say Jews reject Jesus are promoting “fake news” then?
 
Top