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Re: Attributive Monism

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
mr.guy said:
Essential as in "essense of".
Sorry. Okay. I would propose uniqueness, then, to be the sum of the particular set of characteristics that make a thing identifiable. As such, uniqueness *is* inherent and, ideally, the essence of a thing. On what grounds does the Monist propose that it is not? (Sorry if I'm making you repeat something.)

As you said, our understanding of it is perceptual: we perceive and identify things by their unique set of characteristics and traits. But things must exist before we can possibly perceive them; that is the nature of perception.

mr.guy said:
What is "ignored" is a methodology of your making, not mine; what is "important" in reality is wholly arbitrary, thus difficult to truly evaluate as such because of a limited, deductive faculty. What hierarchy reality organizes is here presumed to be egalitarian, and to quantify the universe in no way closes any systems.
That "limited, deductive faculty" is us. Human beings, with our individual subjective perspectives on the world. We exist; we are the instigators of aribtariness, and, along with our "faculties", we are a part of reality.

Does the Monist ignore that, then, in order to look only at "reality's egalitarian hierarchy"?

mr.guy said:
Why is distiguishment necessary for existence?
Because something that is indistinguishable from, for instance, the universe is the universe. There is no separating the thing being discussed, and hence no way to discuss it as a seperate thing.
 

Comet

Harvey Wallbanger
Willamena said:
That makes no sense. :(
I understand little of dualism. From what I have read, it seems to consider the immateial to be substance, material, which also makes no sense to me.

It takes a long time to explain to somebody who hasn't come across it before. Most seem to find it a completely forgien concept. It took a good 3 months for me to finally get one of my friends to the point that they understood it. Most don't have that kind of time or patience.:D

It is nothing; non-being does not have essence.

Just like anti-particles in physics, they exist but not to our own "reality". Nonbeing is not neccisarily not having essence.


There isn't only one; it is that fact that gives us individuality. We are not alone in existence. That which is "me" (spirit, self) exists only in contrast to everything "not-me". My physical body is "not-me", not spirit; my mind is "not-me"; but these things are what my conscious self-identity is constructed from in the context of my physical existence. In the same way, I have an identity constructed as a part of the other greater wholes (groupings) mentioned above. As long as the physical "not-me" world exists, and I am conscious in it (have a body/mind), I (spirit, self) have individuality, a unique perspective on the world.
At least, that's how I see it, and it is no doubt why I have trouble grasping this.

:)

It doesn't matter. I don't have a working theory for that. I am, and that suffices.

From what I've heard of the Big Bang, it could have come from the collapse of a preceding universe.

There are many theories of it. Just one way I've found to beging to explain in terms to those who have no clue what it is I believe.

Well, we tried to explain it. Thanks for playing I guess, or thanks for asking anyway.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
Comet said:
Just like anti-particles in physics, they exist but not to our own "reality". Nonbeing is not neccisarily not having essence.
But anti-particles in physics (in literature, anyway) are not nothing, they are something that has a negative charge... anyway, I'm ready to give up on trying to understand this. Thanks for trying.
 

Comet

Harvey Wallbanger
Willamena said:
But anti-particles in physics (in literature, anyway) are not nothing, they are something that has a negative charge... anyway, I'm ready to give up on trying to understand this. Thanks for trying.

Negative or neutral. Nevermind then.....
 

Comet

Harvey Wallbanger
Bouncing Ball said:
Argh!!!
I am sorry, I wanted to stop myself from being totally offtopic, but this isn't right. It is impossible to divide something by 0..

I should say, an infinite number of solutions depending on the relationship between any two given numbers in an equation. It is not impossible, it is more unacceptable or not understood.
From the Univerisy of Utah Math Department site:
The reason that the result of a division by zero is undefined is the fact that any attempt at a definition leads to a contradiction.
To begin with, how do we define division? The ratio r of two numbers a and b:
r=a/b is that number r that satisfies
a=r*b.Well, if b=0, i.e., we are trying to divide by zero, we have to find a number r such that
r*0=a. (1) But
r*0=0 for all numbers r, and so unless a=0 there is no solution of equation (1).
Now you could say that r=infinity satisfies (1). That's a common way of putting things, but what's infinity? It is not a number! Why not? Because if we treated it like a number we'd run into contradictions. Ask for example what we obtain when adding a number to infinity. The common perception is that infinity plus any number is still infinity. If that's so, then
infinity = infinity+1 = infinity + 2 which would imply that 1 equals 2 if infinity was a number. That in turn would imply that all integers are equal, for example, and our whole number system would collapse. What about 0/0?
I said above that we can't solve the equation (1) unless a=0. So, in that case, what does it mean to divide by zero?
Again, we run into contradictions if we attempt to assign any number to 0/0.
Let's call the result of 0/0, z, if it made sense. z would have to satisfy
z*0=0. (2) That's OK as far as it goes, any number z satisfies that equation. But it means that the result of 0/0 could be anything. We could argue that it's 1, or 2, and again we have a contradiction since 1 does not equal 2.
But perhaps there is a number z satisfying (2) that's somehow special and we just have not identified it? So here is a slightly more subtle approach. Division is a continuous process. Suppose b and c are both non-zero. Then, in a sense that can be made precise. the ratios a/b and a/c will be close if b and c are close. A similar statement applies to the numerator of a ratio (except that it may be zero.)
So now assume that 0/0 has some meaningful numerical value (whatever it may be - we don't know yet), and consider a situation where both a and b in the ratio a/b become smaller and smaller. As they do the ratio should become closer and closer to the unknown value of 0/0.
There are many ways in which we can choose a and b and let them become smaller. For example, suppose that a=b throughout the process. For example, we might pick
a=b = 1, 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, .... Since

a=b, for all choices of a we get the ratio 1 every time! This suggests that 0/0 should equal 1. But we could just as well pick
b = 1, 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, .... and let a be twice as large as b. Then the ratio is always 2! So 0/0 should equal 2. But we just said it should equal 1! In fact, by letting a be r times as large as b we could get any ratio r we please!
So again we run into contradictions, and therefore we are compelled to let 0/0 be undefined.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
This whole mathematical analogy seems to have more obfuscated than clarified the concept.

Molecules of water vapor condense into cloud droplets, then into raindrops. these individuals then fall to earth and merge into the waters of lakes and rivers. The river water eventually merges with the sea.

The raindrop is no longer an individual. Its molecules are scattered throughout the whole. It has become one with Ocean.
 

mr.guy

crapsack
Willamena said:
I would propose uniqueness, then, to be the sum of the particular set of characteristics that make a thing identifiable. As such, uniqueness *is* inherent and, ideally, the essence of a thing. On what grounds does the Monist propose that it is not? (Sorry if I'm making you repeat something.)
No worries.

The monist may point to transience and the inevitable commonality as a breakdown of what is unique. There is really no dispute here to say that "nothing" is, but definite distinction between one thing and another seems false when we isolate one thing to the exception of all.

As you said, our understanding of it is perceptual: we perceive and identify things by their unique set of characteristics and traits. But things must exist before we can possibly perceive them; that is the nature of perception.
I'm not saying anything doesn't exist, but what is identifiable often says more of the vantage than the subject.

That "limited, deductive faculty" is us. Human beings, with our individual subjective perspectives on the world. We exist; we are the instigators of aribtariness, and, along with our "faculties", we are a part of reality.
Okay, then we agree.

Does the Monist ignore that, then, in order to look only at "reality's egalitarian hierarchy"?
I don't think so. The two aren't really at odds with each other.

Because something that is indistinguishable from, for instance, the universe is the universe. There is no separating the thing being discussed, and hence no way to discuss it as a seperate thing.
I'm not sure i understand how this relates.
 

Comet

Harvey Wallbanger
Seyorni said:
This whole mathematical analogy seems to have more obfuscated than clarified the concept.

I can see that, I was just addressing another point. It just helps clear up the matter to somebody with my a brain like mine ;)

Molecules of water vapor condense into cloud droplets, then into raindrops. these individuals then fall to earth and merge into the waters of lakes and rivers. The river water eventually merges with the sea.

The raindrop is no longer an individual. Its molecules are scattered throughout the whole. It has become one with Ocean

You gave some nice examples for anybody who stumbles in here. Frubals for that.
 

Comet

Harvey Wallbanger
I've thought a lot about this thread again tonight. Perhaps I may try again to explain what it is I believe and tie the examples given together:

As the ocean may evaporate to become a cloud, and cloud allowed to become rain, so to does it run back to the ocean. Yes, I will agree upon that.

As E=MC2 (small 2 to be squared that is), energy is matter and matter is energy, forever joined to be one or the other in some combination. Thus the water metaphore.

Yet there is that in that equation/analogy that is forgotten...

It is one or the other/a combination of two things. Matter and energy are intwined together by that which is both and without. What is it that intertwines them?

*Boy, I so lost my train of thought on this explanation and am afraid I will lose that to explain even more*

If matter is neither created nor destroyed, then why is it different?

It is different by that with binds it to being intertwined. What is it then that intertwines it? (THAT WHICH MAKES IT THE SAME THING)

Science and religion both try to explain the same thing... WHO WE ARE, WHERE WE CAME FROM, etc... I view both just as valid as the other and irrelevant all the same. Funny how we are taught "I before E except after C". Science and weird..... sometimes the truth of things is more unimaginable than that which we create. Weird Science.

Nothing is any different but in our mind or "eyes" as it is different from any other thing.... It is all the same in its' own way. That is the way of that which is GOD. Dualism separates that which is and is meant to be, the trinity futhers the "Trialism" as it is meant to be and test... a trial.

Rel"A"tive - Rel"E"vant.... big difference but it is the same. You can break things down all you like, but it does not tarnish the truth lest it be by YOUR eyes... therein lay the difference - the place in which you lie.

Sorry, a bit too cryptic at the end and I'm afraid I lost more than understood what it is I was trying to say....
 

Metempsychosis

Reincarnation of 'Anti-religion'
The ultimate is unknowable.It is beyond everything and nothing.It contains all.

Ultimate Reality lies between two contrary statements. It is absolute and relative at the same time. It is the eternal imperishable even while It is ever changing. It is said to be both This and That.

we are operating within the limits of language and seeing the complex nature of reality.
Water from the ocean contained in a pot can neither be called an ocean nor a non-ocean, but simply a part of ocean. Similarly, a doctrine, though arising from absolute truth can neither be called a whole truth nor a non-truth.
 

Dhyana

Member
The ultimate is unknowable.It is beyond everything and nothing.It contains all.

Ultimate Reality lies between two contrary statements. It is absolute and relative at the same time. It is the eternal imperishable even while It is ever changing. It is said to be both This and That.
.

This is why Advaita ( non dualism ) IMO is better terminology than Monism. Subtle but real difference

My favorite statement of this truth is from the Buddhist Heart Sutra: Void is Form; Form is Void.

Favorite symbol Taoist yin yang:
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1415939379.250844.jpg
 
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