Ravelry and 'virtue signalling"

[dianaiad]

If anybody cares, there is this website for fiber crafters; Ravelry. Casey Forbes and his wife started it in 2008, and I've been a member pretty much since the beginning. Right now there seem to be about 8.5 million subscribers. It's a forum and database for knitters, crocheters and weavers from all over the world, to discuss fiber arts, and to share and sell patterns. A HUGE percentage of the members are NOT US citizens. When I buy a pattern, I usually have to get my payment 'translated' into the monetary system of some other nation.

If you have been paying attention to the news, you may have heard about Forbe's announcement regarding his new policy; he will not allow anybody to post a pattern, or an opinion, that supports Donald Trump. No "MAGA" hats. No 'Build the Wall" scarves. No statement in the Conservative knitters' forum or the GOP knitters forum that even hints at supporting anything Trump does or says. Try it and you will be banned.

Look...I'm white...and a conservative. I'm not totally in support of Trump, but I did vote for him and unless the Democrats can get their thumbs out and produce someone I can actually respect, I'll probably vote for him again. This makes me, in the view of Casey and Ravelry, a white supremacist.
The only problem is, I MARRIED a man who was half African American and half Native American. you want to see what a true white supremacist does to a 'person of color?" Try watching what happens to someone who actually MARRIES one, and then gives birth to five children who now can claim a 'racial heritage' from every group out there, and can check off every box on the forms. 'White Supremacist?" Hardly. I simply am a conservative, and I knit. I have never figured that knitting what a 'white grandmother's hobby,' though I guess I AM a 'white grandmother." Not that my granddaughter is 'white.'
My first knitting teacher was 'black.' I learned to weave from a native American. My favorite designer is Japanese. I attend knitting classes with people of all manner of skin colors and cultures...I have never, until now, figured that one's genes had anything to do with one's ability to knit, crochet or weave, or quilt. When I was very young, I would go into my neighbor's field and follow his sheep, 'gleaning' the wool they left on fences and bushes, and I would bring it home to my grandmother, who would spin it up for me to crochet. Turns out that this is how the people who produce the most expensive fiber in the world, qiviut, do it, if they don't comb it out of the muskox.

The POINT is, knitting and other fiber arts are not the sole purview of rich white women. One of the most famous pictures we have of Sojourner Truth has her with her knitting on her lap. For Ravelry and other rich white liberals to claim it for themselves, and then 'virtue signal' (gadfry, how I hate that phrase) that they are so inclusive and progressive that they are 'allowing' people of all colors and cultures to join them in it? Makes me more than a little ill. Since when do rich white women have the right...or the power...to 'allow' people of color to join them in something?

I've never figured that I needed to 'be inclusive' in order for my 'black' knitting buddies to associate with me, or to shop in the same places I do. I simply am glad to see them, and wonder if they like their Hiya Hiya needles, or if they prefer Chiagoo. Or whether they like doing socks with bamboo or metal. THEIR skin color doesn't affect their love of the craft...why does mine?

As well, AS a conservative, I have now been labeled as 'less than human.' "Deplorable.' I cannot express a political opinion...but I CAN buy a 'F*** Trump' hat pattern. *I* cannot post a pattern that expresses my love of my country and support of the current administration...for whatever reason, but I can sure buy any one of 192 'P*ssy Hat" patterns. AND when someone calls me names, I cannot defend myself, or I'm the one who will be banned.

I've been a member of Ravelry for ten years, and I have enjoyed the camaraderie of fellow fiber crafters there all that time. It took me hours to download all the patterns I have purchased from them. But I cannot support the sheer discrimination and hatred this policy represents. If Casey had said 'no politics...' I would have been fine. But he said that I am a horrible person; I am a white supremacist, he says, and I am not allowed to speak up, even in defense of myself, while others can denigrate and humiliate me...and misrepresent me, without let or hindrance.

So I deleted my account. Yes, Casey has the right to do this; it's a private site, and his freedom of speech allows this. MY freedom of speech says I don't have to support it. So I left.

And it broke my heart, because I also left behind many friendships, associations and groups that enriched my ability to do fiber arts.

So; question: was Ravelry 'right' to do this? Not, 'did they have the right,' because Casey absolutely did, but 'was he right?

Was I?

 

[Orbit]

TLDR

 

[Enoch07]

Meh the left has labelled black folks, Jews, and gay men nazis. I suppose if the people nazis are supposed to hate are apart of that group itself then nobody is safe from being accused.

 

[dianaiad]

TLDR

If you had time to tell me it was too long and you didn't read it, you had time to read it.

Just sayin'.

 

[SomeRandom]

The ultimate breakdown of communication I feel is the Left uses communities in its analysis of the world around them. Fine in an academic setting, dissecting sociological phenomenons.
Not that great necessarily at reflecting nuance. So the more fervent end up alienating potential allies and send them into the arms of the “opposition.”

Then again, politics seems to be dividing people more and more recently.

 

[Father Heathen]

It's tacky and unprofessional to let personal political bias effect how you manage things that have nothing to do with politics. It's their right, but it's the low road. Nothing positive is accomplished by it.

 

[Augustus]

So; question: was Ravelry 'right' to do this? Not, 'did they have the right,' because Casey absolutely did, but 'was he right?

I think it's problematic, and there is perhaps nothing in this entire world less important to me than convenient access to MAGA knitwear patterns.

This is a major problem with social media, at what point (if any) do things become 'commons' rather than purely private property?

As well as niche diversity, the internet creates a small number of highly successful sites which dominate particular areas of communication. "If you don't like it, then just start your own site" type logic doesn't work with these.

I doubt many people would say yes to the following: "If Twitter, Facebook, etc. all decided to wipe the presence of your favourite politician from their sites, block any positive comments about them and promote all negative material shortly before an election, would you be fine with that?"

If you aren't fine with that, then you accept, to some extent, that social media is not simply private property.

Many on the progressive side of the fence have long criticised the power of the corporate media, in which case they should be 1000 times more concerned about the power of the corporations that run digital media outlets (and Google). If the bias was against them then they certainly would be, which seems somewhat short-sighted (Partisan politics in short-sighted shocker!).

Finding a solution is much harder than recognising the problem though.

The POINT is, knitting and other fiber arts are not the sole purview of rich white women.

Reminds me of when some people decided that yarn bombing was racist

 

[Shad]

So; question: was Ravelry 'right' to do this? Not, 'did they have the right,' because Casey absolutely did, but 'was he right?

No. He is injecting his politics and all it's ill into the forum. It is just a self-righteous power trip.

Was I?

I can not answer that as you must evaluate the value of what you lost for whatever gains now and in the future. Perhaps dodging the injection of politics is it's own reward. For me I have found various groups online for non-politic/religion interests that ban anything to do either. Amazingly most people respect the rule with little issue. That could be an option.

 

[dianaiad]

I think it's problematic, and there is perhaps nothing in this entire world less important to me than convenient access to MAGA knitwear patterns.

This is a major problem with social media, at what point (if any) do things become 'commons' rather than purely private property?

As well as niche diversity, the internet creates a small number of highly successful sites which dominate particular areas of communication. "If you don't like it, then just start your own site" type logic doesn't work with these.

I doubt many people would say yes to the following: "If Twitter, Facebook, etc. all decided to wipe the presence of your favourite politician from their sites, block any positive comments about them and promote all negative material shortly before an election, would you be fine with that?"

If you aren't fine with that, then you accept, to some extent, that social media is not simply private property.

Many on the progressive side of the fence have long criticised the power of the corporate media, in which case they should be 1000 times more concerned about the power of the corporations that run digital media outlets (and Google). If the bias was against them then they certainly would be, which seems somewhat short-sighted (Partisan politics in short-sighted shocker!).

Finding a solution is much harder than recognising the problem though.



Reminds me of when some people decided that yarn bombing was racist

THAT is one of the best 'yarn bombs' I've ever seen.

Ah, well...some people would decide that desegregation was racist, if a Republican ordered it.

Oh.
Wait.

They ARE the same people who were against desegregation when a Republican ordered it, come to think of it.

Doesn't anybody stop and actually THINK?

 

[dianaiad]

No. He is injecting his politics and all it's ill into the forum. It is just a self-righteous power trip.



I can not answer that as you must evaluate the value of what you lost for whatever gains now and in the future. Perhaps dodging the injection of politics is it's own reward. For me I have found various groups online for non-politic/religion interests that ban anything to do either. Amazingly most people respect the rule with little issue. That could be an option.

Well, I do miss all the services and the camaraderie from fiber artists all over the world...most of whom couldn't care less about Trump. As well, in the ten years I was a member, I never once posted in the political forums, or said anything political. I honestly didn't figure that when I was talking to a Russian woman about Orenberg shawls, or a Scot about Shetland lace, or a Northern Irish woman about 'Irish crochet," or the Japanese lady who has designed such exquisite cable and lace patterns really cared about how I voted.

On the other hand, it's a matter of, I dunno, ethics, I suppose. I would have done the same thing if Casey Forbes had banned all discussion or mention of Obama, and I most certainly didn't vote for him. I know I would have done this, because even though I'm conservative, and I wasn't all that fond of Obama's policies (especially health care, his constant sending of troops to the middle east and his OWN border policies) I got into considerable trouble with extremists over the "birther" thing. That was ludicrous and I said so. I even told my FATHER that, and I'm not sure he has forgiven me yet.

No, I believe that Casey has the right to run his private service the way he wants. He has the right to decide who can, and who can't, use it.

And I can decide whether I will, by staying there, support his stance, or by leaving and publicly talking about it elsewhere, oppose it. I chose option #2.

There are other sites, and unfortunately, I think that Casey Forbes is discovering that his stand is costing him more than he thought it would. I don't know whether I hope he backs down, or that he holds to his opinion. I won't support his opinion, but I truly hate hypocrisy. The only reason he would back down is because this is hurting his bottom line, and that would be more important than his...what...'honor?' "ethics?" Something like that.

It's like what HE is trying to do to Trump supporters and other conservatives, and my mother has always taught me that "a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."

Being forced to bow to outside pressure is NOT a changing of mind or heart.

 

[ecco]

the left has labelled black folks, Jews, and gay men nazis.

Do you have anything to support that assertion?

 

[ecco]

I think that Casey Forbes is discovering that his stand is costing him more than he thought it would.

Knitting forums make money?!? Who knew!

 

[dianaiad]

Knitting forums make money?!? Who knew!

Amazing, isn't it? But it not only makes money, it makes a LOT of money. 8 million subscribers who all buy patterns or click through on ads.

Lots and lots and lots of money.

 

[Enoch07]

Do you have anything to support that assertion?

Ben Shapiro slams Google over email describing him as a 'Nazi' Google calling Ben Shapiro a Nazi, little do they care is Jewish.

BuzzFeed News Faces Blowback For Claim Ben Shapiro Radicalized A Nazi an article about Buzzfeed falsely claiming Ben Shapiro influenced a man into being a nazi.

Milo Yiannopoulos - Wikipedia a gay man married to a black man accused of being a nazi.

And Candace Owens - Wikipedia is a black woman accused of being a white supremacist supporter/nazi sympathizer.

 

[ecco]

Meh the left has labelled black folks, Jews, and gay men nazis. I suppose if the people nazis are supposed to hate are apart of that group itself then nobody is safe from being accused.

Ben Shapiro slams Google over email describing him as a 'Nazi' Google calling Ben Shapiro a Nazi, little do they care is Jewish.
BuzzFeed News Faces Blowback For Claim Ben Shapiro Radicalized A Nazi an article about Buzzfeed falsely claiming Ben Shapiro influenced a man into being a nazi.
Milo Yiannopoulos - Wikipedia a gay man married to a black man accused of being a nazi.
And Candace Owens - Wikipedia is a black woman accused of being a white supremacist supporter/nazi sympathizer.

Oh, now I see where you are coming from. I thought you were saying that the left called them nazis because they were black, Jewish or gay. Instead, they did so because of their radical views. When their stated views fit the mold, then they should be called out, regardless of race or sexual orientation.

 

[Enoch07]

Oh, now I see where you are coming from. I thought you were saying that the left called them nazis because they were black, Jewish or gay. Instead, they did so because of their radical views. When their stated views fit the mold, then they should be called out, regardless of race or sexual orientation.

Rofl keep on keeping on comrade!