Rape - Is it ever the victims fault?

[Nymphs]

As a survivor, a big fat ******* no from me. It is never the victim's fault, but I have had people tell me that because I was wearing a tank top or that I had been drinking that it was partially my fault.

 

[Revoltingest]

I see the controversy as not about fault, but rather about taking responsibility to reduce the
risk of being raped or otherwise assaulted. This is not to comment on your experience, btw.
The victim is never at fault IMO....in any assault.

 

[Nymphs]

I see the controversy as not about fault, but rather about taking responsibility to reduce the
risk of being raped or otherwise assaulted. This is not to comment on your experience, btw.
The victim is never at fault IMO.

So, I shouldn't have had a drink or wore a tank top? I'm just wondering where that 'responsibility' line is?

P.S. A person is going to rape another person no matter what they were doing or wearing, just an FYI.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I always place blame for an action squarely on the shoulders of the person who commits the act.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Other scenarios to consider:

If a rich person parks their expensive car in a poor neighborhood, are they at fault if it gets stolen?

If a famous celebrity ventures unprotected into a public crowd, are they at fault if they get swamped by the crowd?

If a rich women leaves her expensive jewelry in plain view with her windows and doors unlocked, is she at fault if they get stolen?

If a Republican parks his car baring the bumper sticker "Obama is a Muslim" in the parking lot of the Democratic national convention, are they at fault if their car gets keyed?

 

[Revoltingest]

So, I shouldn't have had a drink or wore a tank top? I'm just wondering where that 'responsibility' line is?

I don't presume to tell you what you must do to reasonably protect yourself from assault.
I only urge thoughtful consideration & action.
Examples:
- Gal attends a frat party filled with aggressive, horny, immature guys. Gal should not get drunk there.
- Gal is at a bar & a stranger hands her a drink. Gal should not accept it, since she cannot know if he intends to drug her.
These steps are suggested to reduce the risk of becoming an innocent victim.

P.S. A person is going to rape another person no matter what they were doing or wearing, just an FYI.

If you're arguing that risk cannot be reduced, then I disagree.
But to reiterate, the perp is always at fault, & the victim of assault never is.
(I'm ignoring muddied waters where both parties are impaired.)

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Other scenarios to consider:

If a rich person parks their expensive car in a poor neighborhood, are they at fault if it gets stolen?

If a famous celebrity ventures unprotected into a public crowd, are they at fault if they get swamped by the crowd?

If a rich women leaves her expensive jewelry in plain view with her windows and doors unlocked, is she at fault if they get stolen?

If a Republican parks his car baring the bumper sticker "Obama is a Muslim" in the parking lot of the Democratic national convention, are they at fault if their car gets keyed?

Not only that they are at fault, but perpetrators who commit such acts are not at fault, if we are to compare victim-blaming in other acts of violence or theft.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I think that rape is always the perpetrator's fault. To shift the context of discussion about the crime toward placing responsibility on the victim for the crime strikes me as extremely harmful, irrational, and rooted in cultural myths.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Not only that they are at fault, but perpetrators who commit such acts are not at fault, if we are to compare victim-blaming in other acts of violence or theft.

I haven't really encountered any type of victim-blaming that is that extreme. However, I realize it may exist.

Regardless, the point of the exercise was for people to think about the difference between fault and responsibility, and to consider whether they are internally honest and consistent regarding other scenarios where they may tend to put some of the responsbility on the victim.

 

[freethinker44]

So, I shouldn't have had a drink or wore a tank top? I'm just wondering where that 'responsibility' line is?

I think many if not most crimes are crimes of opportunity and so in a perfect world we should be able to go about our business without any expectation of being victimized, unfortunately we don't live in that world, and I think there is a certain level of responsibility on the potential victim to try reduce the opportunity of being victimized. And this goes for any crime, not just rape, lock your doors and roll up your windows to prevent theft, don't walk down dark alleys at night with all your jewelry hanging out to prevent robbery, etc. It's still inexcusable for any person to victimize another person, but it rests on the potential victims to mitigate risks of being victimized.

P.S. A person is going to rape another person no matter what they were doing or wearing, just an FYI.

Same goes for any other crime, if someone is going to rob someone they're going to do it no matter what. It's just a matter of who presents the greatest opportunity.

Before the inevitable backlash here, let me clarify; it's no one's fault they are victimized but there is a certain level of responsibility people need to take to avoid as much as possible being victimized. For example, I had my car broken into once, is it my fault someone stole my stuff? Absolutely not, but the crime was entirely preventable had I kept my doors locked, not that it makes the crime less wrong or that I am any less victimized by it, but I could have prevented it.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I haven't really encountered any type of victim-blaming that is that extreme. However, I realize it may exist.

"What did she expect?"

"Men can't control themselves."

"She shouldn't have put herself out there."

I've heard it many times.

Regardless, the point of the exercise was for people to think about the difference between fault and responsibility, and to consider whether they are internally honest and consistent regarding other scenarios where they may tend to put some of the responsbility on the victim.

That's fair.

 

[Skwim]

Other scenarios to consider:

If a rich person parks their expensive car in a poor neighborhood, are they at fault if it gets stolen?

If a famous celebrity ventures unprotected into a public crowd, are they at fault if they get swamped by the crowd?

If a rich women leaves her expensive jewelry in plain view with her windows and doors unlocked, is she at fault if they get stolen?

If a Republican parks his car baring the bumper sticker "Obama is a Muslim" in the parking lot of the Democratic national convention, are they at fault if their car gets keyed?

Good points. Sometimes blame is a shared responsibility.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I think many if not most crimes are crimes of opportunity and so in a perfect world we should be able to go about our business without any expectation of being victimized, unfortunately we don't live in that world, and I think there is a certain level of responsibility on the potential victim to try reduce the opportunity of being victimized. And this goes for any crime, not just rape, lock your doors and roll up your windows to prevent theft, don't walk down dark alleys at night with all your jewelry hanging out to prevent robbery, etc. It's still inexcusable for any person to victimize another person, but it rests on the potential victims to mitigate risks of being victimized.



Same goes for any other crime, if someone is going to rob someone they're going to do it no matter what. It's just a matter of who presents the greatest opportunity.

Before the inevitable backlash here, let me clarify; it's no one's fault they are victimized but there is a certain level of responsibility people need to take to avoid as much as possible being victimized. For example, I had my car broken into once, is it my fault someone stole my stuff? Absolutely not, but the crime was entirely preventable had I kept my doors locked, not that it makes the crime less wrong or that I am any less victimized by it, but I could have prevented it.

In the case of rape, what do you think is the equivalent of locking a car's doors to prevent theft, as you put it? Some people assert that women shouldn't wear certain types of clothes to avoid getting sexually assaulted. There are cultures where women not covering their body from head to toe are considered to be "too liberal" and therefore subjecting themselves to sexual harassment and/or assault. Where should the line be drawn when it comes to "safe clothing"?

 

[Quintessence]

To be honest, I rather dislike the entire language of "fault" and "blame" in the first place. Remove that emotional baggage crap and look at things like a scientist. What are the causal variables and contributing factors? Be honest and objective about that; don't gloss over something merely because someone thinks it is politically incorrect or gets someone all emotional. There can be little doubt that there are factors on the "victim" and "perpetrator" ends that are contributing or causal. Make an honest appraisal of risk factors.

 

[freethinker44]

In the case of rape, what do you think is the equivalent of locking a car's doors to prevent theft, as you put it? Some people assert that women shouldn't wear certain types of clothes to avoid getting sexually assaulted. There are cultures where women not covering their body from head to toe are considered to be "too liberal" and therefore subjecting themselves to sexual harassment and/or assault. Where should the line be drawn when it comes to "safe clothing"?

There is no specific equivalent. Every situation is different.

 

[Alceste]

To be honest, I rather dislike the entire language of "fault" and "blame" in the first place. Remove that emotional baggage crap and look at things like a scientist. What are the causal variables and contributing factors? Be honest and objective about that; don't gloss over something merely because someone thinks it is politically incorrect or gets someone all emotional. There can be little doubt that there are factors on the "victim" and "perpetrator" ends that are contributing or causal. Make an honest appraisal of risk factors.

Sure. Rapists tend to share several qualities in common. They tend to misread body language, perceiving sexual invitation where none exists. They also tend to have difficulty emphasizing with others, seeing everything around them from a narcissistic, self-excusing perspective. For example, when things don't go their way they take it very personally and seek to place blame on others for their own bad choices or poor behavior. They generally exhibit violent and aggressive behavior in other areas of life, not just sexual aggression.

In seeking victims, like most convicted violent criminals, they strongly tend to target people who look like they will not fight back. That might mean an awkward gait, a perceived lack of awareness of your surroundings, or the impression you're not sure where you're going.

So, if you want to minimize your chance of being assaulted, avoid people with the aforementioned personality traits like the plague. When out and about, keep your eyes up and be aware of your surroundings, walk with a steady gait and be sure where you are and where you're going (or at least look that way.)

What you wear, what you drink, who you talk to or flirt with, whether you've had other partners before or multiple partners at present, going out alone and all the ignorant bollox we hear people assume are risk factors are not. The only risk factor for rape is rapists. Understanding who they are is how we mitigate the risks they present.

 

[Alceste]

Other scenarios to consider:

If a rich person parks their expensive car in a poor neighborhood, are they at fault if it gets stolen?

If a famous celebrity ventures unprotected into a public crowd, are they at fault if they get swamped by the crowd?

If a rich women leaves her expensive jewelry in plain view with her windows and doors unlocked, is she at fault if they get stolen?

If a Republican parks his car baring the bumper sticker "Obama is a Muslim" in the parking lot of the Democratic national convention, are they at fault if their car gets keyed?

The issue I have with this is that the rapists don't all live in a particular neighborhood, they don't all share the same political views, they don't gather together in crowds, etc. They can be pretty much anywhere at any time.

Hell, even if you don't leave your house for fear of rapists, some of them like to break in.

So this is not a risk that can be mitigated by a few simple precautions, like the examples you give above. There is no common sense precaution one can take to avoid a rapist except avoiding people who exhibit aggressive, narcissistic behavior and misread sexual cues. But then, not everyone with those character flaws is necessarily a rapist.

 

[Alceste]

In the case of rape, what do you think is the equivalent of locking a car's doors to prevent theft, as you put it? Some people assert that women shouldn't wear certain types of clothes to avoid getting sexually assaulted. There are cultures where women not covering their body from head to toe are considered to be "too liberal" and therefore subjecting themselves to sexual harassment and/or assault. Where should the line be drawn when it comes to "safe clothing"?

Clothing makes no difference at all. If it did, you'd expect nudist colonies and nude beaches to be plagued with sexual assault. Typically, they are not.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

The issue I have with this is that the rapists don't all live in a particular neighborhood, they don't all share the same political views, they don't gather together in crowds, etc. They can be pretty much anywhere at any time.

Hell, even if you don't leave your house for fear of rapists, some of them like to break in.

So this is not a risk that can be mitigated by a few simple precautions, like the examples you give above. There is no common sense precaution one can take to avoid a rapist except avoiding people who exhibit aggressive, narcissistic behavior and misread sexual cues. But then, not everyone with those character flaws is necessarily a rapist.

These are valid points regarding the differences of these analogies. However, they don't nullify the fundamental point of the exercise, which is for people to think about the difference between fault and responsibility, and to consider whether they are internally honest and consistent regarding other scenarios where they may tend to put some of the responsbility on the victim. It is my sincere hope that people are being consistent regarding how they apply their own definitions of fault and responsibility.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Clothing makes no difference at all. If it did, you'd expect nudist colonies and nude beaches to be plagued with sexual assault. Typically, they are not.

Yeah. The notion that nudity is necessarily tied to sexuality and therefore conducive to sexual assault (because of people being "too horny to control themselves") seems to me to be an unfortunately common rape myth in a lot of places.