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Rape as in "Crime of assault" and what is proper justice

Discussion in 'General Debates' started by stvdv, Jun 14, 2020.

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  1. 01: Raped people should never be blamed/shamed for being raped

  2. 02: Raped people shouldn't be blamed/shamed for not being able to recover

  3. 03: Raped people are not responsible for whatever they do to their rapist

  4. 04: Raped people are not responsible for whatever they do to their rapist during the rape

  5. 05: Raped people are responsible for what they do to other people (being raped is no excuse)

  6. 06: A raped girl should be free to choose herself to have abortion or not (if pregnant of rapist)

  7. 07: Rapists are always to blame for raping (and whatever happens because of them raping others)

  8. 08: Rapists who were raped as a child, need to be "treated"(judged) differently from other rapists

  9. 09: I wouldn't report a raped person to the police if I knew (s)he killed the rapist during the rape

  10. 10: If killing was the only option to prevent my wife/daughter from being raped, I'd kill the rapist

Multiple votes are allowed.
Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    Rape as in "Crime of assault" and what is proper justice
    (I keep the broad meaning in mind ... the fewer the assaults the better the world)

    Note: Spoilers can be skipped, just some thoughts I got along the way.

    Why this thread? Yesterday I discussed "getting over emotional traumas" when the other said:
    I was shocked ... he spiritual? ... I already explained my view 1 year ago ... no chance to change:confused:?
    • Should I have corrected/educated him or let him find out himself?
    • How come, that he thinks this way? Do you agree/disagree?
    • Is such a view dangerous, could it opens the door to rape?
    • Is such a view just plain narcissistic, or how you see this?
    Info from wiki on Rape:
    The original definition "Crime of assault" is interesting, as it includes all/everything.
    It became "assault of women" .. understandably .. men are stronger, women more empathetic.
    It was not necessarily sexual .. which seems good, as pain (also emotional) is pain
    It has been extended to "assault of men" nowadays, so again closer to the original "Crime of assault".
    There even has been a court case about "assault of animals" (cruelty done to animals).
    I like the original definition "crime of assault". Cruel thought begets word begets action (closes heart)
    If you are cruel to animals, you become "cruel minded", heart closes, cruel to humans easily starts

    On RF we talk a lot about truth, what is right/wrong action, so some thoughts and questions popped up:
    To stop rape, awareness "rape is wrong" is needed (don't do to others...)
    Emotional impact of rape can be more difficult to heal than the physical impact
    Education is important, the sooner the better. Lots of violence in "the home", so start there.
    If you do a crime, you must do the time. If parents "do this crime", they need brainwashing/education too

    Can you blame the raped one for not "getting over it" (soon), like the man I talked with (quote above)?
    Can you blame a pretty woman for getting raped, just because she looks too "yummy"?
    Can you blame a woman for getting raped if she walks around flashing her breasts?
    Should there be "dressing rules" or should there be only "don't rape rules"?
    Should we always blame the rapist? Or are there circumstances that you shouldn't blame the rapist?
    Should we always jail the rapist? Or are there circumstances that you shouldn't jail the rapist?
    Sometimes the "raped" becomes the "rapist", because (s)he could not "get over it"
    Can you still blame the rapist when (s)he was raped as a child (considering the above)?

    Should a raped girl always be free to choose herself to have abortion or not (pregnant of rapist)?
    (excluded scenarios like "raped by alien whose offspring will destroy the earth etc" ... just normal cases)

    Would you jail/sentence a girl who is raped, but managed to get away, by biting of the penis of the rapist?
    Would you jail/sentence a girl who is raped, but managed to get away, by shooting before rapist "shoots"?

    Would you answer differently if: a)Victim's age 6/12/18/81? + b)Boy instead of Girl + c)Prostitute Girl/Boy?
    Would you answer differently if: a)Raped 1min + b)Raped by 10 rapists + c)Raped continuously for 1 year?

    Would you report the raped person to police if you knew the above, to allow justice to take it's course?

    Knowing the saying "Only speak when spoken to"
    Knowing the saying "Only speak if it improves the silence"
    Would you still report the raped person, considering the above?
    (Remember: there is no need/obligation to point out mistakes of others always)
    (e.g. Hindu anecdotes: Hunter asks saint if he saw the deer. Saint replies "mouth can't see, eyes can't speak".)

    If you walk in a forest and see a man about to rape a girl. No smartphone available nor police. The man is very strong, you and the girl have no chance, and he starts to rape the girl. But you have a gun. Would you kill him, if that is the only way to stop the man from raping the girl?

    * Rape in the original meaning "Crime of assault" happens a lot (esp. in families/workplace)
    * Physical rape happens, but even more "emotional rape", sometimes even leading to suicide
    * Fathers belittling their child can have a life long impact, often leading to depression or even suicide
    * Can you blame someone for suicide; all have survival instinct, people don't easily commit suicide
    * It happens a lot that people feel shamed after being raped, while it should be the rapist feeling shame
    * Sometimes the "raped" becomes the "rapist". Difficult situation ... give therapy or jail or both?
    * Being raped is a life/death situation. If killing rapist is the only way out, would you send victim to jail?
    * Do you agree with the law in your (other) country on rape, or is your "feeling" on right judgment different
    (e.g. No "blow"job, but a "cut"job seems fair to me; of course a fair warning ... e.g. national sms "cut"job alert)

    Summarized into a poll:
    01: Raped people should never be blamed/shamed for being raped
    02: Raped people shouldn't be blamed/shamed for not being able to recover (**1)
    03: Raped people shouldn't be hold responsible for whatever they do to their rapist (**2)
    04: Raped people shouldn't be hold responsible for whatever they do to their rapist during the rape
    05: Raped people are responsible for what they do to other people (being raped is no excuse)
    06: A raped girl should be free to choose herself to have abortion or not (if pregnant of rapist)
    07: Rapists are always to blame for raping (and whatever happens because of them raping others)
    08: Rapists who were raped as a child, need to be "treated"(judged) differently from other rapists (**3)
    09: I wouldn't report a raped person to the police if I knew (s)he killed the rapist during the rape
    10: If killing was the only option to prevent my wife/daughter from being raped, I'd kill the rapist
    (**1) See first quote
    (**2) Kind of karma thing (rapist had it coming)... eye for an eye ... rape for a rape. Better get it over with now then in a next life
    (**3) Being raped shapes you; we don't judge tigers for killing, because that's what they learned "to be normal"

    Just share your ideas....
     
  2. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    My idea: it's inappropriate to be using a subject like this as fodder for a trivial internet discussion.
     
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  3. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    Does not apply to me, as I do take my posts and replies serious (esp. this subject, as it is personal experience). So, I guess it depends on who is writing and reading.
     
  4. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest I have the kavorka
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    You have my permission to discuss these issues.
    Anyone who doesn't like it should consider just ignoring the thread.
     
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  5. Rival

    Rival Ankh, Wedja, Seneb
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    THREAD MOVED TO GENERAL DEBATES.
     
  6. Father Heathen

    Father Heathen Veteran Member

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    Such a topic needs to be discussed in my opinion, albeit delicately given the sensitive nature.
     
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  7. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest I have the kavorka
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    Just don't mention TV shows.
     
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  8. Friend of Mara

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    If it is acceptable to stand your ground in the case of a robbery then it more than follows that you should be able to stand your ground against a rape. In some circles rape is seen as the worst form of violence one can take. I tend to agree. The only ones I did not agree with in the poll was what other people also seemed to disagree with. The person isn't responsible for "anything" they do the rapist is a bit open ended. I can think of a large number of hypothetical situations where I wouldn't agree with what a person might do to a rapist (even their own).

    Having been raped doesn't give you an excuse to commit other crimes. I think being raped can give one an excuse to be rude or to make life decisions that others might not like but don't cause specific harm.

    In the same vein being raped in the past doesn't give you any more leeway than someone who was mugged in the past attempting to mug someone else.

    I dunno I don't think any of these takes are hot or controversial.
     
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  9. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    I agree. Though the Law in Holland is quite strict about it. Things get tricky, when emotions are involved. Who is responsible when (rape)provoked?

    Below are some Laws as we have in Holland:
    I was glad to read:
    "Violence, if proportional, is allowed to defend yourself"
    "Proportional means that no more or more serious violence may be used than is necessary to stop the burglar/rapist."

    So, if killing is the only way to "not get raped", It seems that killing is okay. I am happy to know this, Seems fair to me.
     
    #9 stvdv, Jun 16, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2020
  10. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    True.
    I put it there to compare "violence response during the rape" with "violence response afterwards".

    Personally I believe the rapist is 100% responsible, also when he is killed while raping (his karma).
    A human body consists of: physical, emotional, mental and spiritual bodies. So my personal view on this is:
    1) If the rapist violates you physically you are allowed to kill him, if that is the only way to escape the physical pain; okay according Dutch Law.
    2) If the rapist violates you emotionally you are allowed to kill him, if that is the only way to escape the emotional pain; against Dutch Law probably.
    *) IMO, rape is mostly about emotional pain. I mean all people have sex, that usually does not hurt physically, unless torture/violence is used.

    This is not to debate this issue (probably many disagree:D). I just share my personal feelings of justice. But I am fully aware that killing someone brings it to another emotional level, so it's best to be very sure to know that "killing him is the only way to solve your emotional pain".

    From my spiritual POV I would not want to kill the rapist, but I would not judge/jail a woman/man who kills the rapist for whatever reason
    So, I would never choose to be a judge in this world. Would feel wrong to sentence/jail (free therapy at most) a raped person for harming his/her rapist
     
  11. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    Thank you. Seems good advice to me.

    Seems right to me. Interesting though, considering the reply below.

    :D:D:D

    Indeed, a lot of TV improvement is needed.

    Very interesting thought. If rape is so sensitive, how would rape victims "look" at these TV shows I wonder
    I can imagine they are glad it's on TV (in whatever form), because what is put in the spotlights gets addressed at least
    I can also imagine it's good for them to see they are not the only ones AND that rape is taken serious now
     
  12. Friend of Mara

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    My only points of contention with this is

    1) I would argue all rapes are unprovoked.
    2) During assaults of any kind it is unclear to the extent in which a person is in danger. I might be interpreting this wrong though. An example is if someone is going to "hit" me I don't have any other reason to assume that this act of aggression will simply end with a bump on the noggin. So would it be disproportionate to use lethal force on someone who is bare handed if I have a weapon?

    Or is it more along the lines of this scenario. Someone tries to rape me. I hit them with a bat. They are knocked out. So far so good. But if I continue to beat the unconscious man to death that would be excessive. On the second scenario I am in agreement.
     
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  13. Father Heathen

    Father Heathen Veteran Member

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    Oh, he was referring to a different thread where everyone digressed and focused on a tv show that I mention as an example rather than on the actual thread topic itself.
     
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  14. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    I meant with my above line "Who is responsible when the girl kills the rapist, considering that the rapist provoked her (with rape fear) to kill him"
    My answer is simple. The "rapist had it coming", "self created karma". Girl goes always free. Such Laws might make him think twice maybe.

    I don't know the word "noggin". But I think I get the meaning. I think it is best to not first ask him "what kind of assault you have in mind". Best would be to first shoot him, and then start asking the questions, unless you are a Master in karate and know you can handle his hands without gun.

    This is exactly what was meant in "Dutch Law" in the quote I gave. And even when you kill him, because of an emotional reaction, which you could not control, because of him raping you, I would not charge you for it (but a judge might).
     
  15. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    Okay, that might be, I missed out on that one.
    Still, his remark was to the point here too.
     
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