Rampant Math Ignorance

[Polymath257]

It is funny, I just cannot say, "Math" without thinking 'That is so wrong'

And I'm the same way with 'maths'. It just *feels wrong*.

 

[SomeRandom]

Lol I keep forgetting that the US breaks up their maths courses. We don’t have algebra one year then calculus the next. We just learn it all at the same time. Made watching US media concerning school aged characters rather confusing for me. All through high school we were all waiting for these dreaded calculus and pre calculus classes we kept hearing about.
I found maths boring, but fairly easy. The key is practice. Or perhaps just a good teacher.
Probably suck at it all now though lol

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Fun on a bun!

Speaking of math ignorance. He should be brilliant at math. Given his background of employment and all involving nuclear physics.
But then again I know a millionaire CPA and investor, and he does not know the order of operations (he definitely road the family coattails because he's not actually that bright).

 

[ecco]

For some of the sales (about $50K), they charged no sales tax. My friend wondered if he should let the error slide, or send 6%
(Michigan's rate) to the state. It's enuf to advise paying the state.
I explained that it would be 5.66% rather than 6%. I explained the
basic algebra over the phone, but could still see in his eyes that
deer-in-the-headlights look. So I did it for him on paper, & sent
him a photo.

I suppose that I must be the only person who does not understand why you would send in 5.66% (of $50,000) when the rate is 6% (of $50,000) .

 

[Vinayaka]

I suppose that I must be the only person who does not understand why you would send in 5.66% (of $50,000) when the rate is 6% (of $50,000) .

Use ratios .. Solve 50/53 (6%) equals n/50 and get 47.169 .. which is 5.66%. There would be other was to demonstrate.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

And who needs the correct change anyway!? Come on, it's not as though anyone counts it

Most people don't, and they certainly don't want pennies. I don't even bother counting it all out when people give me a heap of random coins. I just hit "exact change" on the register. I don't want to touch their stuff, anyway.

 

[Revoltingest]

Maths is hard, really hard. It just isn't for everyone.
I did some tutoring as a student and I could help most pupils but some just aren't able to think abstract.
Fractions are crucial for maths. Many get through it with some luck and it hits them when they have to do quadratic equations. Then they came to me because they thought they didn't understand quadratic equations.
(A recurring pattern. Most YEC think there's a problem with evolutionary biology when in reality they have a problem with science in general.)

I once had to explain to my bosses (one of them had a maths degree) why the sum of discounted items isn't always the discounted sum of the items.

Sometimes people are hurried or distracted,
& forget to apply the math they've learned.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Speaking of math ignorance. He should be brilliant at math. Given his background of employment and all involving nuclear physics.
But then again I know a millionaire CPA and investor, and he does not know the order of operations (he definitely road the family coattails because he's not actually that bright).

You would think so, but Homer was a tech and a safety inspector at a power plant, not a nuclear physicist, lol. He was also hired as part of a program to bring in unskilled workers. So we actually shouldn't expect him to be good at math . Lol

 

[Shadow Wolf]

You would think so, but Homer was a tech and a safety inspector at a power plant, not a nuclear physicist,

His position as a tech would have had him needing a background in nuclear physics and engineering. He would have had a math-intensive course load in college. But yet I'm not sure if Homer would even know the most basic of engineering formulae.

 

[Revoltingest]

I suppose that I must be the only person who does not understand why you would send in 5.66% (of $50,000) when the rate is 6% (of $50,000) .

Go with what we know, & make some substitutions.....
Payment = money received
Price + Tax = Payment
Price + (.06 x Price) = Payment
Price x (.06 + 1) = Payment
Price = Payment / 1.06
Tax = .06 x Price
Tax = .06 x (Payment / 1.06)
Tax = Payment x .06/1.06
Tax = 5.66% of Payment

 

[Polymath257]

I suppose that I must be the only person who does not understand why you would send in 5.66% (of $50,000) when the rate is 6% (of $50,000) .

Think of it like this. If you had $50,000 and needed to pay 6% of it, that would be $3000. So, if you had a total of $53,000=$50,000*(1.06), you would need to pay $3000 of it.

But, if you only have $50,000, how much should you pay? Certainly NOT $3000, since then you would have $47000 left and 6% of that is not that $3000.

So, you need to know what, when multiplied by 1.06 gives you $50,000. The answer is $50,000/(1.06)=47169.01. So, you owe $50,000 -$47,169.10 =$2830.90.

This corresponds to a rate of 5.662% on the $50,000.

An easier example to understand: Suppose you lose 50% of your money. What percentage of what is left over do you need to gain to get back your original amount?

Well, if you start with $100 and lose 50%, you end up with $50. That means you have to *double* to get back to where you started: that is a 100% increase.

This asymmetry is a very common mistake and it inevitably hurts the person assuming it is symmetric.

 

[Heyo]

Sometimes people are hurried or distracted,
& forget to apply the math they've learned.

Yep. In our modern times people are pretty much detached from the reality of life. Who needs to use trigonometry to construct something? I don't remember all the formulae, I just know how to construct them.

 

[ecco]

He had a sale on lumber
over the weekend, & did a bang up business. Alas, his office
manager was out sick, & a little snafu happened. For some of
the sales (about $50K), they charged no sales tax.

Go with what we know, & make some substitutions.....
Payment = money received
Price + Tax = Payment
Price + (.06 x Price) = Payment
Price x (.06 + 1) = Payment
Price = Payment / 1.06
Tax = .06 x Price
Tax = .06 x (Payment / 1.06)
Tax = Payment x .06/1.06
Tax = 5.66% of Payment

Uh, what?



From the original post, they "charged no sales tax" - sales tax paid = 0.
If they paid $50,000 then that was the price for the lumber $50,000 plus the tax charged $0.

The transaction should have been...
Lumber $50,000
Tax (6%) $3,000
================
$53,000

The transaction was...
Lumber $50,000
Tax (uncollected) $0
================
$50,000



The purchaser actually paid only $50,000 for $50,000 worth of lumber. The company owes 6% of $50,000 [$3,000] to the state.

From your post:
Payment = money received
Price + Tax = Payment
Price + (.06 x Price) = Payment

Correct Version
Payment = money received
Price + Tax = Payment (IF the salesman did it correctly - he didn't)

Therefore...
Price (50,000) + Tax (0) = payment (50,000)



I'm open to being shown what I'm doing wrong.


Please see next post also.

 

[ecco]

Think of it like this. If you had $50,000 and needed to pay 6% of it, that would be $3000. So, if you had a total of $53,000=$50,000*(1.06), you would need to pay $3000 of it.

I agree.

But, if you only have $50,000, how much should you pay? Certainly NOT $3000, since then you would have $47000 left and 6% of that is not that $3000.

Why do you only have $50,000? That is the question. If the clerk had not messed up, he would have collected $53,000 ($50,000 - lumber; $3,000 - tax - at 6% of $50,000).

 

[Revoltingest]

Uh, what?



From the original post, they "charged no sales tax" - sales tax paid = 0.
If they paid $50,000 then that was the price for the lumber $50,000 plus the tax charged $0.

The transaction should have been...
Lumber $50,000
Tax (6%) $3,000
================
$53,000

The transaction was...
Lumber $50,000
Tax (uncollected) $0
================
$50,000



The purchaser actually paid only $50,000 for $50,000 worth of lumber. The company owes 6% of $50,000 [$3,000] to the state.

From your post:
Payment = money received
Price + Tax = Payment
Price + (.06 x Price) = Payment

Correct Version
Payment = money received
Price + Tax = Payment (IF the salesman did it correctly - he didn't)

Therefore...
Price (50,000) + Tax (0) = payment (50,000)



I'm open to being shown what I'm doing wrong.


Please see next post also.

They're required by law to charge sales tax.
If not added to the price, then the state deems
it included in the price.

To argue with the state about why the 5.66%
wasn't sent to them is an invitation to pay
a much larger penalty.

 

[ecco]

A friend called today for some advice. He had a sale on lumber
over the weekend, & did a bang up business. Alas, his office
manager was out sick, & a little snafu happened. For some of
the sales (about $50K), they charged no sales tax.

It's the 21st Century. Maybe your friend needs a good POS system. Actually, I find it hard to believe that any company that can make a single $50,000 sale for lumber doesn't have an automated POS system.

 

[Revoltingest]

It's the 21st Century. Maybe your friend needs a good POS system. Actually, I find it hard to believe that any company that can make a single $50,000 sale for lumber doesn't have an automated POS system.

It was a hugely popular sale attended by many more than
expected. Not a single sale.
This was the first such one they've ever held, & the office
manager (who was to handle it) was out sick. Their main
business is tree service. Lumber is a new endeavor.

Ever start a new business?
It's a learning process.

 

[ecco]

They're required by law to charge sales tax.
If not added to the price, then it's imputed,
ie, included in the price.

That's not what your OP post stated:

For some of the sales (about $50K), they charged no sales tax.


"some of the sales" $50,000 worth of lumber.
"charged no sales tax" sales tax charged: $0

"They're required by law to charge sales tax"
I think the actual requirement is that the company must pay 6% of sales on taxable items to the State.
The state is not going to go after the clerk for not charging the 6%.
The state will go after the company for not paying the 6% ($3,000).

Consider:
This sale $50,000
Other sales this month $950,000
Tax charged and collected on the bad $50,000 sale = $0
Tax charged and collected on correct sales during the month 6% of $950,000 = $57,000

Paperwork submitted to state at end of month.
Sales: $1,000,000
Taxes owed at 6%: $60,000


Your friend collected only $57,000. He owes $60,000.

Realistically, he should have immediately contacted the buyer and explained the problem. If he didn't want to do that, he is stuck for the $3,000.

 

[Revoltingest]

That's not what your OP post stated:

For some of the sales (about $50K), they charged no sales tax.


"some of the sales" $50,000 worth of lumber.
"charged no sales tax" sales tax charged: $0

"They're required by law to charge sales tax"
I think the actual requirement is that the company must pay 6% of sales on taxable items to the State.
The state is not going to go after the clerk for not charging the 6%.
The state will go after the company for not paying the 6% ($3,000).

Consider:
This sale $50,000
Other sales this month $950,000
Tax charged and collected on the bad $50,000 sale = $0
Tax charged and collected on correct sales during the month 6% of $950,000 = $57,000

Paperwork submitted to state at end of month.
Sales: $1,000,000
Taxes owed at 6%: $60,000


Your friend collected only $57,000. He owes $60,000.

Realistically, he should have immediately contacted the buyer and explained the problem. If he didn't want to do that, he is stuck for the $3,000.

We'll agree to disagree.

 

[ecco]

Ever start a new business?

Yeah. Started and ran successfully for over 20 years.

Either your advice to your friend is wrong or your OP was poorly worded.