Quran vs. Bible: Questions for Muslims

[HOGCALLER]

chuck010342,

wait, your telling me what you just did was useless? Or maybe not I was confused by that statement.

Yes and No! The part of the discussion where all the “contradictions” where exchanged was against my wishes and was mostly a useless waste. I engaged in it hoping to show The Truth, by example and first hand experience that such arguments had no affect on him, his faith, and his book and therefore would not affect me either. And as I you can see my engaging in it did not produce the desired effect, thus it was a waste and useless. As for the rest of the discussion, it was going in circles because my questions and points of argument were not being dealt with and answered. So even it was not as effective as I had hoped, but that may be do to the participants rather than due to the arguments. So I will try again.

If no Muslims want to answer my questions and address my points because of all the nonsense that just went on, I will just wait till another time and ask again. One thing is for certain The Truth’s list of “contradictions” did neither even though he still thinks they did.

I would have to disagree with you. If you violate the law of non-countradiction then the statement cannot be true. What I was proposing was that sometimes a statement can seem countradictory but they can be resolved. The apparent countradiction can be resolved within in the Gospels that I gave but every single countradiction cannot be resolved. Its either this or that.

Again, Yes and No, because it is not an effective way to reach and change hearts. That is my reason for avoiding the “gotcha” type of argumentation. Especially in the person on the receiving end of a “gotcha” it will not produce the desired result. Oh yes, others that share my point of view will agree with the “obvious” points of a “gotcha” but does the receiver and others of his point of view ever really “see” it. I have my doubts. So it only “proves” something to the unbeliever, the attacker. Do you see my point?

I am one that believes that people are just people, mostly alike rather than different, and that there are relatively few truly diabolical people and the rest are just misguided and that up till death there is always a hope. In addition, Jesus commanded that we follow a rule now called Golden. Did you like it when, if ever in the past, someone succeeded in nailing you with a “gotcha?” Not likely! And did it weaken your faith? Apparently not for here you are. So what did the “gotcha” accomplish? Nothing other than making you feel bad for a little while; so it was useless other than to break the rule and that really “hurt” the other person and not you.

The type of “contradiction” that is effective is one that is ‘come to’ or ‘arrived at’ in the heart of the other person. That type of “contradiction” must be cultivated and grown over time and not “sprung on” an individual.

well you might change your opinion of my after you get to know me most people do.

That might be true of me also, only time will tell. But I try to look for the good and I try to remember what our people must have thought of Saul of Tarsus before he accepted the truth.

actually I would.

There is where we are different. My faith in what I belief, the history, the unity, the continuity, the fulfillments recognized, the acts of love demonstrated toward, and on and on will not allow it. (1 Corinthians 8:2) “If anyone thinks he has acquired knowledge of something, he does not yet know [it] just as he ought to know [it].” We ignorant humans still do not know what we do not know! And, so far, God has consistently acted in a way that confounded the wisdom of man. So is there something in the Bible that is beyond my understanding, at least for now, and as I start to “come to” it might it have the appearance of a “contradiction?” It is a possibility. Be careful that you do not let man-made wisdom trip you up and keep you from “seeing” the truth. “The law of non-contradiction” is man-made wisdom.

As an example, please compare the following: (Matthew 19:26) “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” (Hebrews 6:18) “. . .it is impossible for God to lie. . .” (Titus 1:2) “. . .which God, who cannot lie, promised. . .” Let me warn you that even though God alone is capable of “absolutes” he has yet to exercise one or to act like it.

It is also that type of man-made wisdom that makes attackers think that what they do in their attacking is not their fault because the attacked did or did not do this or that or the other therefore it is the fault of the one being attacked rather than the attacker’s and so they are justified in attacking. Do you not see how useless that wisdom is? And we have seen a good display of it here in this thread. Oh yes, I too was just as guilty, but I will not allow it to happen any more.

.

 

[HOGCALLER]

chuck010342,

So how do answer?

4-Heaven, no man hath ascended ....... JOHN 3:13

Elijah ascended ............... 2 KINGS 2:11
Enoch ascended............... GENESIS 5:24

Islam does not teach that they are already in Heaven, what do you say?


.

 

[chuck010342]

Perhpaswe should continue this elsewhere for we are getting off topic.

 

[chuck010342]

we should continue this discussion elsewhere. We are going off topic. I would also like to debate you on the issue of Jesus and if he claimed to be God or not I think you brought that up on this thread

 

[HOGCALLER]

chuck010342,

Perhpaswe should continue this elsewhere for we are getting off topic. . . .

I would also like to debate you on the issue of Jesus and if he claimed to be God or not I think you brought that up on this thread

The topic of this thread is pretty much dead. Therefore I am not concerned that we will ruin my chances of having a discussion with a Muslim on the points made and questions asked above; my concern is, as I have already expressed in this thread, that confrontational, in-your-face, or “gotcha” style debates or discussions are of little to no value.

I originally got involved in the discussions with the Muslims because I wanted to learn what they believe and what they have to say and because my own reading in the Quran had raised questions for which I wanted answers. Everyone can see how it ended up; obviously I am not a good debater. So why would I want to engage in a debate that I have had many times before and that I already know both sides of? What’s in it for me, another opportunity to show off my poor debating skills?

Besides, I have already asked you questions and made points that you have completely ignored, why would I want to get involved in another “discussion” where what I say and ask is going to be totally ignored? That is the reason I ran The Truth off, is it not?

Now let me review:

1. We both already know the outcome: you will continue to believe what you believe and the same is true of me. So of what value would the debate be?

2. If you really want to have a discussion with me there are already opportunities presented to you in this thread. Why should I go start a new thread just so you can ignore more of my points and questions there?

3. The ultimate answer to your proposed debate is also the ultimate answer that would have been eventually reached in this thread. Can you see where I was headed in flysky’s thread as well as in this thread? If so, the very same arguments that work against the Muslims claims regarding the Bible and what the Bible teaches also work against your beliefs. Please be my guest to answer the question: “So when and why did God change his mind?”

4. Here is what I told The Truth in flysky’s thread:

The biggest problem I will have in establishing any kind of consensus with you, and also with most so-called Christians, is the almost total ignorance of and the resulting rejection of the history, continuity and unity of the word of God.

Let me further explain:

Part of the trials Satan brought on Job included the arrival of three “friends” or “comforters.” That these men were part of Satan’s arrangement is made plain by what they did and said, they were anything but comforting to Job, and also by what God said in reply to them and by what he instructed Job to do in their behalf.

The first to speak to Job was Eliphaz and what he said to Job was of demonic origin, note what he says at the beginning of his comments at Job 4:12-16:

"Now a word was brought to me stealthily,
And my ear received a whisper of it.
"Amid disquieting thoughts from the visions of the night,
When deep sleep falls on men,
Dread came upon me, and trembling,
And made all my bones shake.
"Then a spirit passed by my face;
The hair of my flesh bristled up.
"It stood still, but I could not discern its appearance;
A form was before my eyes;
There was silence, then I heard a voice:

Eliphaz sincerely thought he was speaking the truth and was speaking words and ideas given to him by God through God’s angel or spirit. But, in actuality, it was a wicked spirit creature, a demon, which had spoken to Eliphaz. Otherwise, why would Jehovah have reproved Eliphaz and his two associates for having spoken lies? (Job 42:7-8) If one was not paying close attention and was just to quickly, lightly read through them, Eliphaz’s words and ideas sound pretty good, but “the Devil is in the details.”

To properly understand the Bible requires an understanding or grasp of the basic details. So before I would consider debating you about what Jesus believed and said, we would have to establish and agree on what the Bible had always said before Jesus’ time. In other words, we need to first establish what Abraham believed and said and what Moses believed and said and so on. I doubt seriously that is the type of debate you have in mind! But remember, “The devil is in the details.”



.

 

[HOGCALLER]

chuck010342,

Probably not in a way that will be satisfactory to you but I have reconsidered and I will have a discussion, let me repeat a discussion and not a formal debate, with you but on the subject of a thread I posted some while back: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19613

There are several points made but the last paragraph, the paragraph just above the Addendum, sets out what I think is most important and it should be the basis for our possible discussion. It might be very interesting to hear what you have to say about the subject of that thread.




.

 

[lets_debate]

The Qur'an calls for the muslims to believe that 'THERE WERE PROPHETS BEFORE MUHAMMAD (PBUH) AND SOME OF THEM CAME WITH DIVINE BOOKS'. It does not say that believe in what is written it, because the TORAH, INJIL etc. have been adulterated. The previous books contained the same material as of Qur'an with some variations depending on the people of that time.