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Quran vs. Bible: Questions for Muslims

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by HOGCALLER, Oct 18, 2005.

  1. booboo

    booboo New Member

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    Hi,

    Whoever says that the Holy Qur'an claims that the Holy Bible is corrupt does not know the Qur'an.

    I will not burst open many verses that will support the claim, but I will show one example:



    ""


    The commanding verb used in Arabic for "Let .. judge" is "liyahkum" which is present-tense. Many Muslims may say that verses such as these speak of the holy books before the Holy Qur'an, when clearly it is present-tense.

    However, I do not know what you are trying to imply in your discussions. There are 2 cases:

    1. Bible is right because Qur'an says so. This means Qur'an is also right.
    2. Qur'an is wrong. So if the Qur'an says you are right, then you are also wrong.

    If you are trying to prove the Bible is right and you do not believe in the Qur'an, then you cannot use the Qur'an as supportive material, because you will lose in both cases. Just a word of warning.

    I will conclude with this:
    "5:48 To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah. it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute; "

    Peace
     
  2. HOGCALLER

    HOGCALLER Active Member

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    booboo,

    Well said and very scholarly also. Thank you for the excellent post!

    Does the site linked to contain that information you shared or is it from another source or even from your first hand knowledge of the language?

    Such information is very useful and while I have both books and programs with such information regarding the Bible, I do not have it for the Quran. Is there a web site where it is available?



    Reply: #1 mostly.

    Although I do not believe the Quran neither do I believe that every single word in it is a lie. Primarily my argument is that, in my reading of the Quran, I just do not see all the condemnation of the Bible that I hear in the comments of Muslims.

    The fact is that just as there are cases where attempts were made to alter the Bible, and failed, so it is with the Quran also. But rather that be involved in a pointless argument that goes something like this: “Yes it is. … No it isn’t. … Yes it is. … No it isn’t. … Yes it is. … No it isn’t. …” ad infinitum. I prefer to establish common ground, if possible, and the make determinations about right or wrong based much more important issues and hopefully on things upon which we can agree and failing that then to end up by agreeing to disagree. So time will tell whether or not mine is a losing case. I certainly am not ready to retire at this point.

    I certainly am not so arrogant as to believe that I cannot loss an argument. And even if I do lose I will win by what I learn and next time perhaps it will go my way. But even so, winning the argument is not necessarily my main objective. Sometimes winning the argument means you have closed the heart and mind of the other person. So quite honestly I do not care if I lose, but only that I made people stop and think.

    In my opinion Jesus won every argument he had with the Jewish religious leaders and hated and murdered is all it got him from them. But there were bystanders and onlookers that did benefit.

    .
     
  3. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    1-The "Lord" tempted David . . . 2 SAMUEL 24:1
    or "Satan" provoked David . . . 1 CHRONICLES 21:1

    2-Jesus lost "None" of his disciples JOHN 18:9
    or He lost only "One" JOHN 17:12

    3-Did Saul enquire of the Lord .... 1 SAMUEL 28:6
    or didn't? ........................... 1 CHRONICLES 10:13-14

    4-Heaven, no man hath ascended ....... JOHN 3:13
    Elijah ascended ............... 2 KINGS 2:11
    Enoch ascended............... GENESIS 5:24

    5-"ALL" are sinners ............... 2 CHRONICLES 6:36
    "Whosoever is born of God DOTH NOT commit sin . . ." 1 JOHN 3:9

    Even though i don't like to go for contradictions but because you asked so these are just examples that shows that the current bible is not accurate 100% as you claim because it's a translation of the Original Torah and Injil but not the real word of God.

    The word of God is the original Torah, Injil and all the other holy books including the last scripture ever, Quran.
     
  4. HOGCALLER

    HOGCALLER Active Member

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  5. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    Don't worry, i'll never leave any post of you without answer just be patient and answer my pervious post to you about the contradictions in the bible first then i'll reply to the rest of your posts. :)
     
  6. HOGCALLER

    HOGCALLER Active Member

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    The Truth,

    I was going to say this in your thread Paul, Paul, Paul but decided to say it here instead. I am not attacking you personally nor did say anything about your intentions or motives. But I do very much disagree with your choices in argumentation. Those types of arguments that I mentioned, the petty attacks on the Quran or on the Bible using supposed mistakes and contradictions, is what I was calling “child’s play,” not you personally. Go back and read it again!

    Those arguments are as weak as a little child, that is to say they are child’s play. But it seems you cannot see the important issues, just as I pointed out in Paul, Paul, Paul, and you can only see … well let me let Paul explain it: (Hebrews 5:11-14) “Concerning him we have much to say and hard to be explained, since you have become dull in your hearing. 12 For, indeed, although you ought to be teachers in view of the time, you again need someone to teach you from the beginning the elementary things of the sacred pronouncements of God; and you have become such as need milk, not solid food. 13 For everyone that partakes of milk is unacquainted with the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. 14 But solid food belongs to mature people, to those who through use have their perceptive powers trained to distinguish both right and wrong.” The type of arguments you use are baby food. I feel like the little old lady on the hamburger commercial saying, “Where’s the beef!” (You may be too young to remember an American TV commercial from the 80’s.)

    Now let me spell it out to you: If I were to read the Quran specifically looking for “problems” with it, do you think I could find “problems”? Oh yes, no doubt about it! Now if I listed all those many “problems” I found and showed them to you, what is the likelihood that you also would think they were “problems?” Not likely! So what makes you think that anyone that truly believes in and has faith in the Bible is going to be bothered by or impressed with your list of “contradictions?” Explain that to me, please. What in the world makes you think that your list of “problems with the Bible” or my list of “problems with the Quran” will “prove” anything to anybody? If my “list” proves nothing to you, why do you think that your “list” will prove anything to me? I just do not get it. That is weak! That is child’s play!

    Obviously you are a novice at this type of discussion and argumentation! Why do I say that? In addition to the above please consider this: Your biggest complaint against the Bible is your unfounded claim that it has been changed and edited, is that not so? So what do you choose to throw in my face but the best possible evidence that you claims against the Bible are unfounded? Do you not realize that if your claims against the Bible are true then there would be no “problems” left in the Bible because after all these thousands of years they all would have been removed by now, isn’t that so? If, in fact, changes and editing were being made in the Bible would not the first things to be “fixed” be the apparent contradictions? Yet here you are bringing up apparent contradictions. Again, the only reason for there to still be “problems” left in the Bible is because it is not being changed and edited as you claim, isn’t that so? So which is it? Because it cannot be both ways! Please start using your head, The Truth, and start thinking through what you are saying before you say it.

    Please remember that it is by YOUR CHOICE that we are now taking this detour onto the low road and that it is against my wishes that we are going to engage in a mud-wrestling match instead of having an intelligent discussion. When you get tired of having to answer nonsense, when you get tired of having to explain the obvious, when you get tired of this all this spiritual childishness, when you finally decide to have a mature spiritual discussion, all you have to do is post a one-word reply: “UNCLE!”

    When I see that one word all by itself posted as a reply in this tread, only then will I stop posting the crap that I too will now go collect off of the web so as to throw at you. Useless and pointless crap is what it is too! But it seems to be how you want to play the game.

    As you extend all the time and energy “defending” the Quran and your beliefs against the nonsense, against the small-minded little arguments dredged up by persons with little understanding and no faith, please think about this: is it really changing your heart and mind; is it really proving anything against the Quran? If the answer is yes then by all means keep up this style of argumentation and debate and I will start reading the Quran anew looking for this kind of stuff with which to attack your weak faith. My guess, no, my hope is that you will start to grow up soon and that you will realize that just as all the small-minded unimaginative crap that I collect from the Internet to throw at you has no detrimental affect on your faith or the Quran neither is all this small-minded unimaginative crap that you collected from the Internet to throw at me going to have a detrimental affect on my faith or prove anything about the Bible—so what is the point? It is pointless is it not? OK here goes:

    Numerical Contradictions: There are many numerical contradictions in the Quran. I seems Allah cannot do simple math calculations.

    How many days did it take to create the Heavens and the Earth?

    Quran-7:54: Your guardian-Lord is Allah who created the heavens and earth in Six Days

    Quran-10:3: Verily your Lord is Allah, who created the heavens and earth in Six Days

    Quran-11:7: He it is Who created the heavens and earth in Six Days

    Quran-25:29: He Who created the heavens and earth and all that is between, in Six Days

    The above verses clearly state that Allah created the heavens and the Earth in 6 days. But the verses below state:

    Quran-41:9 : Is it that ye deny Him who created the earth in Two Days ?

    Quran-41:10: He set on the (earth) Mountains standing firm high above it, and bestowed blessing on the earth, and measured therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion, in FOUR DAYS…

    Quran-41:12: So He completed them (heavens) as seven firmaments in Two days and … Now do the math: 2 (for earth) + 4 (for nourishment) + 2 (for heavens) = 8 days; and not 6 days.

    Continues below.
     
  7. HOGCALLER

    HOGCALLER Active Member

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    You can see similar mistakes in these verses: Quran-4:11, 4:12, and 4:176 in inheritance law. In these verses one can see the total property after adding all distributed parts adds up more than the available property, i.e., the totals become more than 1 which are: 1.125 and 1.25. How come? A gross mathematical error, is it not?

    Creation of the Heavens and the Earth:

    Which one was created first? As you will see in the verses below, Allah at one time says that Earth was created first and another time he says that the Heavens were created first.

    · Quran-2:29: It is He who hath created for you all things that are on Earth; THEN He turned to the Heavens and made them into seven firmaments (Skies)….

    · Quran-79:27-30: Are you the harder to create, or is the heaven that He built ? He raised the height thereof and ordered it [no doubt referring to the “order” of the seven firmaments]; and He has made dark the night thereof, and He brought forth the morning thereof. And after that, He spread (flattened) the earth

    The Quran teaches us that the Sun sets in a muddy spring:

    · Quran-18:86: Till, when he (the traveler Zul-qarnain) reached the setting-place of the Sun, he found it going down into a muddy spring…

    Everybody knows better than that, but that is what the Quran says, isn’t it?

    Which one is correct?:

    · Quran-2:256: There is no Compulsion in religion….

    OR

    · Quran-9:29: Fight those who do not profess the true faith (Islam) till they pay the polltax (jiziya) with the hand of humility.

    · Quran-9:5: Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them and take them captive, and besiege them and prepare for them each ambush….

    · Quran-47:4: When you meet the unbelievers in the Jihad strike off their heads….

    · Quran-2:191: And slay (kill) them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out such is the reward of those who suppress faith.

    · Quran-8:65: O Apostle! Rouse the believers to the fight…(against) unbelievers.

    Very often apologetics claim that, Islam is a religion of peace and there is no compulsion. Yet, punishment of an apostate in Islam is, of course, the death penalty. No compulsion it that, huh?

    The Truth, all the above is a very limited selection of things available from one web site (http://www.secularislam.org/guide/mirza.htm) and there are many, many other things and other web sites besides that I have not yet tapped for information. Do you really want to engage in this type of discussion? If you do not then follow my instructions and post the word and we can get back to something resembling a meaningful intelligent discussion. You started this and only you can stop it.

    Please explain all the obvious “problems” of the Quran listed on the very, very short list above. The long list is pages and pages and pages long. As a matter of fact I am absolutely floored by how long it is! I am telling you the truth, I had never before gone onto the web looking for crap to use against the Quran and I am genuinely surprised at how much I found. The Truth, I really cannot believe that you really want to go through all of it. As I told booboo, everything I have brought up here is based on my own reading of the Quran and related materials. None of it, before this post, came from a web site.

    I will promise you this much: there are some of your “contradictions” that I do want to discuss because the explanations setup some of my later arguments—so we will get into the answers but not before you answer my questions and points brought up before you brought up “contradictions.” In other words, I asked first therefore you answer first. After you answer my questions, then I will answer yours.

    If you do not want to waste a lot of time dealing with the “problems” from the Quran I have included in this post, then follow my instructions and bring it to an end. ONLY ONE THING: do bring up that pointless type of argumentation again. If you think this is the way you must go about this discussion then be prepared to answer all of the above and literally hundreds more just like and even much harder than those.

    Again, I will promise you this much: there are some of your “contradictions” that I do want to discuss because the explanations setup some of my later arguments—so we will get into the answers but not before you answer my questions and points brought up before you brought up “contradictions.” In other words, I asked first therefore you answer first. After you answer my questions, then I will answer yours.

    Let me review some of the points and questions that have not been answered so far:

    1. Concerning both the Torah and Injil, we read: “Wherein is guidance and a light.” And we also read of protection of those earlier books so that disbelievers of them could be judged for their disbelief. Again, how could one be adversely judged for not believing in “Books” that were/are not trustworthy and reliable and that God did not think enough of to protect and preserve? That makes no sense! So it must be that God did take a role in the preservation and protection of all His Words so that He and we could make judgments based on them.

    2. Many of the great interpreters (such as Al-Jalalayn, Al-Fakhr Al-Razi, Al-Tabari, and Al-Baydawi) acknowledge that according to the Quran, the Torah is called “the Book of God” and believers are invited to turn back to their “Book”—why would the Quran advise turning back to something that was no longer trustworthy? It is obvious that at the time that the Quran was written the “Books” of God written before the Quran are still worthy of consideration and turning back to, at the very least for the peoples they were given to but also for every Muslim.

    3. Also the Quran refers to “the Book which helps to make things clear.” And as we saw above that “Book” was still reliable at least as late as the writing of the Quran.

    Continues below.
     
  8. HOGCALLER

    HOGCALLER Active Member

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    4. Nevertheless, some Muslims still believe that the present-day Torah and Injil have been corrupted and cannot be trusted. IF that is true it must have occurred after the seventh century when the Quran was written. Let me repeat that last point: From a Quranic viewpoint, no corruption could possibly have occurred BEFORE the writing of the Quran because many Quranic verses call for Muslims to believe the revelations of God provided in the Torah and the Injil. Would God call for Muslims to believe in falsehood and corruption? Not likely! Therefore, at the time the Quran was written the earlier “revelations” were still reliable and to be believed. For example:

    5. 002.136
    YUSUFALI: Say ye: "We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them: And we bow to Allah (in Islam)."
    PICKTHAL: Say (O Muslims): We believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed unto Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the tribes, and that which Moses and Jesus received, and that which the prophets received from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered.
    SHAKIR: Say: We believe in Allah and (in) that which had been revealed to us, and (in) that which was revealed to Ibrahim and Ismail and Ishaq and Yaqoub and the tribes, and (in) that which was given to Musa and Isa, and (in) that which was given to the prophets from their Lord, we do not make any distinction between any of them, and to Him do we submit.

    6. 003.084
    YUSUFALI: Say: "We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam)."
    PICKTHAL: Say (O Muhammad): We believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed unto Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and that which was vouchsafed unto Moses and Jesus and the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered.
    SHAKIR: Say: We believe in Allah and what has been revealed to us, and what was revealed to Ibrahim and Ismail and Ishaq and Yaqoub and the tribes, and what was given to Musa and Isa and to the prophets from their Lord; we do not make any distinction between any of them, and to Him do we submit.

    7. 004.136
    YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray.
    PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His messenger and the Scripture which He hath revealed unto His messenger, and the Scripture which He revealed aforetime. Whoso disbelieveth in Allah and His angels and His scriptures and His messengers and the Last Day, he verily hath wandered far astray.
    SHAKIR: O you who believe! believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Book which He has revealed to His Messenger and the Book which He revealed before; and whoever disbelieves in Allah and His angels and His messengers and the last day, he indeed strays off into a remote error.

    8. Not only that but the Quran also recommends that Muslims seek out those versed in the Torah and the Injil, saying: “If ye realise this not, ask of those who possess the Message.” Would it do so if these texts had been corrupted? Furthermore, many Quranic verses call out to “People of the Book” (the Torah and the Injil or Gospel or, in other words, Jews and Christians) to turn back to their books. Surely, an invitation would not be given to turn back to corrupted books!

    9. 016.043
    YUSUFALI: And before thee also the messengers We sent were but men, to whom We granted inspiration: if ye realise this not, ask of those who possess the Message.
    PICKTHAL: And We sent not (as Our messengers) before thee other than men whom We inspired - Ask the followers of the Remembrance if ye know not! -
    SHAKIR: And We did not send before you any but men to whom We sent revelation-- so ask the followers of the Reminder if you do not know—

    10. 021.007
    YUSUFALI: Before thee, also, the messengers We sent were but men, to whom We granted inspiration: If ye realise this not, ask of those who possess the Message.
    PICKTHAL: And We sent not (as Our messengers) before thee other than men, whom We inspired. Ask the followers of the Reminder if ye know not?
    SHAKIR: And We did not send before you any but men to whom We sent revelation, so ask the followers of the reminder if you do not

    11. 005.066, 068
    YUSUFALI: If only they had stood fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that was sent to them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side. There is from among them a party on the right course: but many of them follow a course that is evil. … Say: "O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that cometh to thee from thy Lord, that increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But sorrow thou not over (these) people without Faith.
    PICKTHAL: If they had observed the Torah and the Gospel and that which was revealed unto them from their Lord, they would surely have been nourished from above them and from beneath their feet. Among them there are people who are moderate, but many of them are of evil conduct. … Say O People of the Scripture! Ye have naught (of guidance) till ye observe the Torah and the Gospel and that which was revealed unto you from your Lord. That which is revealed unto thee (Muhammad) from thy Lord is certain to increase the contumacy and disbelief of many of them. But grieve not for the disbelieving folk.
    SHAKIR: And if they had kept up the Taurat and the Injeel and that which was revealed to them from their Lord, they would certainly have eaten from above them and from beneath their feet there is a party of them keeping to the moderate course, and (as for) most of them, evil is that which they do. … Say: O followers of the Book! you follow no good till you keep up the Taurat and the Injeel and that which is revealed to you from your Lord; and surely that which has been revealed to you from your Lord shall make many of them increase in inordinacy and unbelief; grieve not therefore for the unbelieving people.

    Continues below.
     
  9. HOGCALLER

    HOGCALLER Active Member

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    12. OK, now to the questions. First off, the Muslims I have talked to so far seem to reject the Bible out of hand, especially after the above, why is it that? If your answer is that the Bible is corrupted and untrustworthy, when did this falsification take place?

    13. Please be thorough and specific in your answers. If you claim, for example, that the Bible has been changed in some way, if at all possible, please provide specific examples of it and not just something you think is the case but have no actual example of it.

    14. However, for the sake of argument let’s say your statement is true. My reply would be, “So what!” It was not the public that was protecting and preserving God’s Words, it was God himself. So your claim is not only wrong but is pointless!

    15. Next, I do not know what you think you know but I do know that your statement is 100% wrong. But even if it was right then why does the Quran tell Muslims to believe them and also to seek out help and testimony from Jews and Christians in understanding their (Muslim’s) own book?

    16. Again, let me spell it out for you. The Quran calls all the writings that are now collected all together into one book “the Book of Enlightenment.” Is the Quran lying? You have told me that such a thing is not possible. Why would the Quran call all those words of God collected together in the Bible, “the Book of Enlightenment” if it were not true? When you answer those questions for me—DO NOT CLOUD THE ISSUE WITH WHETHER ON NOT HUMANS CORRECTLY BELIEVE AND FOLLOW THOSE WORDS OF GOD—that is not the point. All “Muslims” do not follow the Quran properly just as the Jews and Christians have not all properly followed their holy writings, so what! That matters not! The point is this: The Quran itself says those Words of God are what? That’s right, “the Book of Enlightenment.”

    17. Now you and the Quran are telling me the God deliberately does author confusion and that he forgot all His words from before the Quran! You and the Quran are telling me that God has deliberately authored words design to be misleading! You and the Quran are telling me that God went back on His words and promises and instructions contained in the Bible! “So when and why did God change his mind?”

    18. Again, let me ask you: “So when and why did God change his mind?” Why does HE say, “Do but ask the Children of Israel how he came unto them,” if they are liars and exaggerators about the events that happened in Egypt? Why does God repeatedly tell Muslims to ask the Jews and Christians about things if they have mishandled and corrupted his Words? Obviously God considered the “Book of Enlightenment” and its possessors trustworthy at the time He made those statements! One more time let me ask you: “So when and why did God change his mind?” OR could it be God has not changed and it is Islam and Muslims that have changed? That seems much more likely to me!

    19. That will be news to the Egyptians who rely on those very structures for so much of their tourist trade. And also to the archeologists who are studying those “great works and fine buildings” to this very day. Again, “So when and why did God change his mind?”

    20. Reply: You insist on ignoring my point and questions! The point is that at least as late as the seventh century “the Book of Enlightenment” was trustworthy and reliable and contained no fabrication!! The Quran itself says so!! So when you claim otherwise you are contradicting what the Quran says!!

    I just can feel it in my bones that you still do not understand what I am saying about your argumentation. So let me give you a tiny preview. This is not my only answer to your #1 because it is one of the ones I want to discuss further, but let me show you how weak your argument is.

    You quote two scriptures dealing with the same set of events but written by different men at different times. And you use them as “proof” that the Bible was changed and edited because they seem to say different things.

    OK! So what you are saying is that someone deliberately changed and edited the Bible so that it now “contradicts” itself but that before it did not, is that what you are saying? Now how much sense does that make? Why, those ancient Jews that were entrusted by God with his words were so stupid that when they changed the Bible they changed it so as to make a “problem” rather than to cover-up a “problem,” is that what you are saying? I cannot bring myself to believe that that is what you actually believe and that you want me to believe it also—IT DOES NOT MAKE SENSE!

    PLEASE POST THAT ONE WORD!



    .
     
  10. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    I have no idea what is the thing that made you be angry this much?

    let me refresh your memory as you used to say:



    Please ask any member in this forum for his opnion about your challenge above and he will tell you that: YOU ASKED FOR IT.

    So, i don't have any problem to make things clear for you about the things you are confused with in Quran and i'll give you "God willing" satisfy answers about it. You also please keep your words for me to clearify for me what i'm confused to be *contradictions* for the benfit of both of us. :)

    Please go and answer the things which *appeard* to me to be contradictions but i'm not sure so please explain it for me and why some verses APPEARD to be against each other.
     
  11. HOGCALLER

    HOGCALLER Active Member

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    The Truth,

    Again, you still do not “get it!” Staying only with your example #1: You say that because those two verses appear to “contradict” each other that they “prove” that the Bible has been modified. My question is: “Where’s the beef?” Because there is no there, there!

    Show me please, which of those two Scriptures is the one that has been changed? Show me please, when was it changed? Show me please, what did it say before it was changed? Show me please, where is your proof of any alteration having occurred to either of those Scriptures? Show me please, where a copy of the Bible dating from before the seventh century, again the Quran itself says that the Bible is trustworthy at the time of its writing, that says something different in either of those verses than what is said by a copy of the Bible dating from after the seventh century.

    Again, the Quran itself, in plain words understandable to anyone reading them, says that the Bible, “The Book of Enlightenment,” the Holy Scriptures are indeed sound! Anyone who believes in the Quran must agree that the text of the Bible, the Holy Scriptures or “the Book of Enlightenment,” has not been corrupted. There can be no doubt that they are God’s Word, for the Holy Scriptures have not been changed since the time that the Quran said that the Torah and the Injil are “guidance and a light” and that “there is none that can alter the Words (and Decrees) of God.”

    Just because you cannot seem to figure out what is being said in those two verses does not mean that they have been modified. Again, you are claiming that they were modified into what you called a “contradiction”—that simply makes on sense! The fact is that both verses are telling the truth and are telling God’s message and have not been modified! The problem for you with those verses is not that they have been modified but rather that you cannot figure out the truth in them.

    Again, show me please, which of those two verses has been changed? When was it changed? What did it say before it was changed? Where is your proof of any alteration having occurred to either of those verses? Show me please where a copy of the Bible dating from before the seventh century, again the Quran itself says that the Bible is trustworthy at the time of its writing in the seventh century, that says something different in either of those verses than what is said by a copy of the Bible dating from after the seventh century.

    Again, the Quran itself, in plain words understandable to anyone reading them, says that the Bible, “The Book of Enlightenment,” the Holy Scriptures are indeed sound! Anyone who believes in the Quran must agree that the text of the Bible, the Holy Scriptures or “the Book of Enlightenment,” has not been corrupted. Either that or the Quran really does contradict itself! There can be no doubt that they are God’s Word, for the Holy Scriptures have not been changed since the time that the Quran said that the Torah and the Injil are “guidance and a light” and that “there is none that can alter the Words (and Decrees) of God.” Does the Quran contradict itself?

    It is pointless for me to try to show you the truth from the Bible when you will not accept it even from the Quran!!

    Where’s the beef? Where is your proof? Your “proof,” your argument is illogical—it makes no sense and you have not real “proof,” no actual evidence showing any change or modification to either of those verses. Your only argument is to claim that the Quran contradicts itself! Do you now “get it?”

    Either the Quran says, “there is none that can alter the Words (and Decrees) of God” or it does not, which is it? Does the Quran contradict itself or not?


    Continues below.
     
  12. HOGCALLER

    HOGCALLER Active Member

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    The Truth, as Dezi Arnez used to say, “You got alota splainin to do!” As promised, I will keep piling it on till you use the word and stop it. PLEASE STOP THIS NONSENSE SO WE CAN GET BACK TO TALKING TO EACH OTHER INSTEAD OF AT EACH OTHER.



    In Sura 3:42, 45 SEVERAL angels appear to Mary in the annunciation of the birth of Jesus.

    How many angels were talking to Mary?

    In Sura 19:17-21 only ONE angel appears to the virgin Mary.



    In Sura 22:47 and 32:5 Allah's day is equal to 1,000 human years.

    Allah's day is equal to how many human years?

    In Sura 70:4, Allah's day is equal to 50,000 human years.



    In Sura 41:30 and 57:21 there is said to be only one garden in Paradise.

    How many garden's are there in paradise?

    In Sura 18:31, 22:23, 25:33, and 78:32 there are many gardens in Paradise.



    Sura 56:7 says there will be three distinct groups of people at the Last Judgment.

    How many groups will there be at the last judgement?

    Sura 90:18-19 and 99:6-8 say there will be two distinct groups at the Last Judgment.



    Sura 32:11 The angel of death

    Sura 47:27 The angels (plural)

    Who takes people's souls at death?

    Sura 39:42 "It is Allah that takes the souls at death"



    Sura 35:1 Angels have 2, 3, or 4 pairs of wings

    How many wings do angels have?

    The angel Gabriel had 600 wings. (Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 54, Number 455)



    Sura 54:19 - One day

    How many days did Allah need to destroy the people of Aad?

    Sura 41:16 & 69:6,7 - several days






    Sura 41:11 states that in the process of creation heaven and earth were first apart and are called to come together.

    Heaven and earth ripped apart or called together?

    Sura 21:30 states that they were originally one piece and then ripped apart.



    Sura 4:48, 116

    No

    Does Allah forgive shirk?

    Sura 4:153, 25:68-71

    Yes



    Sura 2:97 - The Angel Gabriel

    Who brings the revelation from Allah to Muhammad?

    Sura 16:102 - The Holy Spirit



    Surah 18:89-98 says Alexander the Great was a devout Muslim and lived to a ripe old age.

    Alexander the Great

    Historical records show that Alexander the Great died young at 33 years of age. He believed he was divine and forced others to recognize him as such. In India on the Hyphasis River Alexander erected twelve altars to twelve Olympian gods.



    Surah 9:30 says the Jews believe that Ezra is the Son of God - the Messiah

    Ezra the son of God

    This has never been a tenet of Judaism.



    Surah 20:90-100 says a Samaritan helped the Israelites build the golden calf, and it mooed after coming out of the fire.

    The Golden Calf

    Samaritans did not exist as a people until at least 1000 years after the time of Moses and the Israelite exodus from Egypt.
    .




     
  13. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    Dear HOGCALLER, you are just babling and fooling around without answering my qustion?

    You didn't explain to me why the verses i brought to you were different?

    Firstly, About showing you where, when and how they have been chaged, It's not my holy book and i don't have alot of information about it but i was expecting to get the information from you but for no specific reasons you just want us in this thread to throw stones to each other like kids instead of cooperating until we get to know the truth whether it's in your side or my side. We had a good discussing before but you are having troubles in understanding the point this time. I'm not interested in throwing stones at you even though i can bring for you 1000 examples of verses where we can find contradictions, incest, etc but i don't want to use that crap against you even though the net is full of it.

    It was only an example that the bible is not accurate enough to be considered as the plain word of God 100% but i apperciate it alot as the translation of *many* of God's word and Jesus's word. I have a KJV and i read it sometimes to get knowledge from it and to know more about the Torah and Injil and it's good to expand your knowledge throgh it but it's not enough to say that all the bible is the word of God.

    Secondly, The Quran never claim that the bible is the word God but the Torah & Injil only because all of us knows that the bible contains God's word, Jesus words, Paul's word, letters and unknown writers words too.

    Thirdly, i'll accept your explaination for the verses if it was logical.

    Finally, i hope by the end of my post you will understand more what do i mean because i respect the bible alot but i only acknowledge the real Torah & Injil as the word of God as Quran says.

    Now, it's your choice whether to continue our discussing WITH each other or not. If you said yes so please be brave enough to say that the bible may have some mistakes not because all of it is fabricated but because of the mistakes in translating from a language to another which may happen the same with the translated Quran too in some cases. That's why i fully depend in the original arabic Quran but not the translations.
     
  14. HOGCALLER

    HOGCALLER Active Member

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    The Truth,

    “Dear [The Truth], you are just babling and fooling around without answering my qustion?”

    You say:


    Reply:


    You say:


    Reply: In other words you are now saying, yes, finally you are admitting that you do not know what you are talking about in regard to the Bible!! Again, just as I said all along and as you now say, “i don't have alot of information.” So, in other words you, without any evidence or proof whatsoever, have been going around and shooting your mouth off about somebody else’s holy book; making false claims (if you have no proof of what you say they are false claims) and acting like you know for a fact that what you say is the truth when in fact you have just admitted that you do not know what you are talking about! Did I get that about straight? And then you have the nerve to ask what has me riled up?

    You say:


    Reply: The only reason to continue our discussion is if you give up the child’s play and if you follow my instructions about how to end this:


    Do you now agree that that type of argumentation is pointless and is for spiritual babies?

    Do you now agree not to use that type of argumentation, from this point forward, in any discussion with me?

    Do you now agree to answer my questions—all of them? It is pointless to call it a discussion if I am the only one that actually has to answer a question! (My questions do not include the crap from the Internet unless you insist that I answer your crap from the Internet—what is fair for you is fair for me. And I have already promised to answer some of those “contradictions.”)

    No! I will not admit to your false claims regarding the Bible—you do not know what you are talking about and you have no proof and it goes against everything that God has said.

    “Now, it's your choice whether to continue our discussing WITH each other or not.” If you want to continue, then follow my instructions: “when you finally decide to have a mature spiritual discussion, all you have to do is post a one-word reply: “UNCLE!””

    If I do not see the word “uncle,” I will know your answer to the above is “NO!” and I will carry on the discussion with other Muslims. More than one has posted an excellent reply.



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  15. chuck010342

    chuck010342 Active Member

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    What is interesting about this post is that within the Gospel of Matthew I think it is, that one angel appears to mary while the Gospel of Luke has two angels. This is not countradictory because each gospel was written from a specific point of view, however it is a countradiction within the Koran because the Koran claims that it is from one point of view. What do you think of that argument HOGCALLER?
     
  16. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    Actually, i never claimed that i'm aware of everything and i asked you to gain information and knowledge from you but it's so clear that instead of answering me you are just trying to order me to obey your instructions only and to go for the discution the way you like and this will never happen and it's not fair.

    Therefore, I'll never say UNCLE nor DAD because it's non-sense to do so.

    As long as you are insisting in replying to me the way you are doing so, then peace be with you and may others as you said discuss with you about this.:)
     
  17. HOGCALLER

    HOGCALLER Active Member

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    Dear Muslims,

    Correct me if I am wrong, but is it not your belief and the teaching of the Quran that the words of the Quran apply to all peoples and at all times? And also that true worship/religion has not changed? Is that a correct understanding and a true statement about Islamic teaching and belief?

    And is it not also true that it is those beliefs that would cause a Muslim to say these words?

    002:135, 136:
    YUSUFALI: They say: "Become Jews or Christians if ye would be guided (To salvation)." Say thou: "Nay! (I would rather) the Religion of Abraham the True, and he joined not gods with Allah." 136 Say ye: "We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them: And we bow to Allah (in Islam)."
    PICKTHAL: And they say: Be Jews or Christians, then ye will be rightly guided. Say (unto them, O Muhammad): Nay, but (we follow) the religion of Abraham, the upright, and he was not of the idolaters. 136 Say (O Muslims): We believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed unto Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the tribes, and that which Moses and Jesus received, and that which the prophets received from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered.
    SHAKIR: And they say: Be Jews or Christians, you will be on the right course. Say: Nay! (we follow) the religion of Ibrahim, the Hanif, and he was not one of the polytheists. 136 Say: We believe in Allah and (in) that which had been revealed to us, and (in) that which was revealed to Ibrahim and Ismail and Ishaq and Yaqoub and the tribes, and (in) that which was given to Musa and Isa, and (in) that which was given to the prophets from their Lord, we do not make any distinction between any of them, and to Him do we submit.






    .
     
  18. HOGCALLER

    HOGCALLER Active Member

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    chuck010342,


    You say: "What is interesting about this post is that within the Gospel of Matthew I think it is, that one angel appears to mary while the Gospel of Luke has two angels. This is not countradictory because each gospel was written from a specific point of view, however it is a countradiction within the Koran because the Koran claims that it is from one point of view. What do you think of that argument HOGCALLER?"

    I really do believe that anybody can read any book and can find all kinds of “problems” with which to go play “gotcha.” I really am not a fan of doing that even though I did this time just to teach the lesson that those things are really useless if one is trying to reach hearts.

    There can be many reasons for an apparent contradiction and the vast over-whelming majority of those reasons will have nothing to do with whether or not the statements are true and/or inspired. So they prove nothing one way or the other. I want my acceptance and rejection of the Bible or Quran to be based on something more substantial than playing “gotcha.”

    There are many times in the Bible where one writer of one verse includes or excludes details or a point of view not in the other verse and that accounts for the difference. That reasonable explanation is enough for you and me but a hardcore “gotcha” player could counter with this question: The Bible claims to have only one author so doesn’t that mean one point of view too? And so you see you can end up going round and round and never accomplish anything. Not the way I want to play the game.

    Even more important than what I think of your argument is, what would a Muslim think of it? Put yourself in the other person’s shoes. If you were a sincere and devout Muslim would your faith be shaken in the least by that “contradiction?” Not likely! So why bother. If you were a sincere and devout Christian would your faith be shaken by the “contradictions” posted by The Truth? Not likely! So he was wasting our time, correct? And that is why I put an end to it. There are much more important reasons for accepting/rejecting the Bible/Quran!

    However, I do want to say that I appreciate your thinking and reasoning, top notch. The other thing I very much appreciate is your attitude, you were not accusatory and in an attack mode. I will many times answer “gotcha” questions and points, depending on the attitude of the person asking. I like your attitude.

    .
     
  19. HOGCALLER

    HOGCALLER Active Member

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    The Truth,



    In other words, your answers to my questions and requests are, NO! Therefore:

    C YA!

    .
     
  20. chuck010342

    chuck010342 Active Member

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    wait, your telling me what you just did was useless? Or maybe not I was confused by that statement.

    I would have to disagree with you. If you violate the law of non-countradiction then the statement cannot be true. What I was proposing was that sometimes a statement can seem countradictory but they can be resolved. The apparent countradiction can be resolved within in the Gospels that I gave but every single countradiction cannot be resolved. Its either this or that.

    I like the game 'gatcha' I would counter with my own argument. Yes, There is only one point of view, but that point of view, uses the various points of view of men to get its point across. Its the old Unity within diversity argument.

    actually I would.

    well you might change your opinion of my after you get to know me most people do.
     
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