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Quran vs. Bible: Questions for Muslims

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by HOGCALLER, Oct 18, 2005.

  1. HOGCALLER

    HOGCALLER Active Member

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    I have several questions I would like to discuss with a Muslim or Muslims. To keep it simple I will not ask them all at once. My first questions require a long setup but are simple questions:

    The Quran calls the Torah and the Injil “the Book of Enlightenment,” “the Scripture giving light,” “the illuminating book.”

    003.184
    YUSUFALI: Then if they reject thee, so were rejected messengers before thee, who came with Clear Signs, Books of dark prophecies, and the Book of Enlightenment.
    PICKTHAL: And if they deny thee, even so did they deny messengers who were before thee, who came with miracles and with the Psalms and with the Scripture giving light.
    SHAKIR: But if they reject you, so indeed were rejected before you messengers who came with clear arguments and scriptures and the illuminating book.


    035.025
    YUSUFALI: And if they reject thee, so did their predecessors, to whom came their messengers with Clear Signs, Books of dark prophecies, and the Book of Enlightenment.
    PICKTHAL: And if they deny thee, those before them also denied. Their messengers came unto them with clear proofs (of Allah's Sovereignty), and with the Psalms and the Scripture giving light.
    SHAKIR: And if they call you a liar, so did those before them indeed call (their messengers) liars; their messengers had come to them with clear arguments, and with scriptures, and with the illuminating book.


    Many Quranic verses state that these earlier “Books” are from God. Also the Quran states that Jesus was sent to confirm or verify the Torah, the Psalms or the Writings, and the Prophets (that is what makes up the Old Testament of the Bible). Therefore it is obvious that those “Books” are considered as trustworthy in Jesus’ day and were also worthy of confirmation and verification by Jesus.

    002.089
    YUSUFALI: And when there comes to them a Book from Allah, confirming what is with them,- although from of old they had prayed for victory against those without Faith,- when there comes to them that which they (should) have recognised, they refuse to believe in it but the curse of Allah is on those without Faith.
    PICKTHAL: And when there cometh unto them a scripture from Allah, confirming that in their possession - though before that they were asking for a signal triumph over those who disbelieved - and when there cometh unto them that which they know (to be the truth) they disbelieve therein. The curse of Allah is on disbelievers.
    SHAKIR: And when there came to them a Book from Allah verifying that which they have, and aforetime they used to pray for victory against those who disbelieve, but when there came to them (Prophet) that which they did not recognize, they disbelieved in him; so Allah's curse is on the unbelievers.


    006.089
    YUSUFALI: These were the men to whom We gave the Book, and authority, and prophethood: if these (their descendants) reject them, Behold! We shall entrust their charge to a new people who reject them not.
    PICKTHAL: Those are they unto whom We gave the Scripture and command and prophethood. But if these disbelieve therein, then indeed We shall entrust it to a people who will not be disbelievers therein.
    SHAKIR: These are they to whom We gave the book and the wisdom and the prophecy; therefore if these disbelieve in it We have already entrusted with it a people who are not disbelievers in it.


    Concerning both the Torah and Injil, we read: “Wherein is guidance and a light.” And we also read of protection of those earlier books so that disbelievers of them could be judged for their disbelief. Again, how could one be adversely judged for not believing in “Books” that were/are not trustworthy and reliable and that God did not think enough of to protect and preserve? That makes no sense! So it must be that God did take a role in the preservation and protection of all His Words so that He and we could make judgments based on them.

    005.044, 46-47
    YUSUFALI: It was We who revealed the law (to Moses): therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islam) to Allah's will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law: for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah's book, and they were witnesses thereto: therefore fear not men, but fear me, and sell not my signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) Unbelievers. … And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah. Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.
    PICKTHAL: Lo! We did reveal the Torah, wherein is guidance and a light, by which the prophets who surrendered (unto Allah) judged the Jews, and the rabbis and the priests (judged) by such of Allah's Scripture as they were bidden to observe, and thereunto were they witnesses. So fear not mankind, but fear Me. And My revelations for a little gain. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are disbelievers. … And We caused Jesus, son of Mary, to follow in their footsteps, confirming that which was (revealed) before him in the Torah, and We bestowed on him the Gospel wherein is guidance and a light, confirming that which was (revealed) before it in the Torah - a guidance and an admonition unto those who ward off (evil). Let the People of the Gospel judge by that which Allah hath revealed therein. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are evil-livers.
    SHAKIR: Surely We revealed the Taurat in which was guidance and light; with it the prophets who submitted themselves (to Allah) judged (matters) for those who were Jews, and the masters of Divine knowledge and the doctors, because they were required to guard (part) of the Book of Allah, and they were witnesses thereof; therefore fear not the people and fear Me, and do not take a small price for My communications; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the unbelievers. … And We sent after them in their footsteps Isa, son of Marium, verifying what was before him of the Taurat and We gave him the Injeel in which was guidance and light, and verifying what was before it of Taurat and a guidance and an admonition for those who guard (against evil). And the followers of the Injeel should have judged by what Allah revealed in it; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the transgressors.


    Many of the great interpreters (such as Al-Jalalayn, Al-Fakhr Al-Razi, Al-Tabari, and Al-Baydawi) acknowledge that according to the Quran, the Torah is called “the Book of God” and believers are invited to turn back to their “Book”—why would the Quran advise turning back to something that was no longer trustworthy? It is obvious that at the time that the Quran was written the “Books” of God written before the Quran are still worthy of consideration and turning back to, at the very least for the peoples they were given to but also for every Muslim.

    003.023
    YUSUFALI: Hast thou not turned Thy vision to those who have been given a portion of the Book? They are invited to the Book of Allah, to settle their dispute, but a party of them Turn back and decline (The arbitration).
    PICKTHAL: Hast thou not seen how those who have received a portion of the Scripture invoke the Scripture of Allah (in their disputes) that it may judge between them; then a faction of them turn away, being opposed (to it)?
    SHAKIR: Have you not considered those (Jews) who are given a portion of the Book? They are invited to the Book of Allah that it might decide between them, then a part of them turn back and they withdraw.


    Also the Quran refers to “the Book which helps to make things clear.” And as we saw above that “Book” was still reliable at least as late as the writing of the Quran.

    037.117
    YUSUFALI: And We gave them the Book which helps to make things clear;
    PICKTHAL: And We gave them the clear Scripture
    SHAKIR: And We gave them both the Book that made (things) clear.

    Continues below.
     
  2. HOGCALLER

    HOGCALLER Active Member

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    Nevertheless, some Muslims still believe that the present-day Torah and Injil have been corrupted and cannot be trusted. IF that is true it must have occurred after the seventh century when the Quran was written. Let me repeat that last point: From a Quranic viewpoint, no corruption could possibly have occurred BEFORE the writing of the Quran because many Quranic verses call for Muslims to believe the revelations of God provided in the Torah and the Injil. Would God call for Muslims to believe in falsehood and corruption? Not likely! Therefore, at the time the Quran was written the earlier “revelations” were still reliable and to be believed. For example:

    002.136
    YUSUFALI: Say ye: "We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them: And we bow to Allah (in Islam)."
    PICKTHAL: Say (O Muslims): We believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed unto Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the tribes, and that which Moses and Jesus received, and that which the prophets received from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered.
    SHAKIR: Say: We believe in Allah and (in) that which had been revealed to us, and (in) that which was revealed to Ibrahim and Ismail and Ishaq and Yaqoub and the tribes, and (in) that which was given to Musa and Isa, and (in) that which was given to the prophets from their Lord, we do not make any distinction between any of them, and to Him do we submit.


    003.084
    YUSUFALI: Say: "We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam)."
    PICKTHAL: Say (O Muhammad): We believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed unto Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and that which was vouchsafed unto Moses and Jesus and the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered.
    SHAKIR: Say: We believe in Allah and what has been revealed to us, and what was revealed to Ibrahim and Ismail and Ishaq and Yaqoub and the tribes, and what was given to Musa and Isa and to the prophets from their Lord; we do not make any distinction between any of them, and to Him do we submit.


    004.136
    YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray.
    PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His messenger and the Scripture which He hath revealed unto His messenger, and the Scripture which He revealed aforetime. Whoso disbelieveth in Allah and His angels and His scriptures and His messengers and the Last Day, he verily hath wandered far astray.
    SHAKIR: O you who believe! believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Book which He has revealed to His Messenger and the Book which He revealed before; and whoever disbelieves in Allah and His angels and His messengers and the last day, he indeed strays off into a remote error.


    Not only that but the Quran also recommends that Muslims seek out those versed in the Torah and the Injil, saying: “If ye realise this not, ask of those who possess the Message.” Would it do so if these texts had been corrupted? Furthermore, many Quranic verses call out to “People of the Book” (the Torah and the Injil or Gospel or, in other words, Jews and Christians) to turn back to their books. Surely, an invitation would not be given to turn back to corrupted books!

    016.043
    YUSUFALI: And before thee also the messengers We sent were but men, to whom We granted inspiration: if ye realise this not, ask of those who possess the Message.
    PICKTHAL: And We sent not (as Our messengers) before thee other than men whom We inspired - Ask the followers of the Remembrance if ye know not! -
    SHAKIR: And We did not send before you any but men to whom We sent revelation-- so ask the followers of the Reminder if you do not know—


    021.007
    YUSUFALI: Before thee, also, the messengers We sent were but men, to whom We granted inspiration: If ye realise this not, ask of those who possess the Message.
    PICKTHAL: And We sent not (as Our messengers) before thee other than men, whom We inspired. Ask the followers of the Reminder if ye know not?
    SHAKIR: And We did not send before you any but men to whom We sent revelation, so ask the followers of the reminder if you do not


    005.066, 068
    YUSUFALI: If only they had stood fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that was sent to them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side. There is from among them a party on the right course: but many of them follow a course that is evil. … Say: "O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that cometh to thee from thy Lord, that increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But sorrow thou not over (these) people without Faith.
    PICKTHAL: If they had observed the Torah and the Gospel and that which was revealed unto them from their Lord, they would surely have been nourished from above them and from beneath their feet. Among them there are people who are moderate, but many of them are of evil conduct. … Say O People of the Scripture! Ye have naught (of guidance) till ye observe the Torah and the Gospel and that which was revealed unto you from your Lord. That which is revealed unto thee (Muhammad) from thy Lord is certain to increase the contumacy and disbelief of many of them. But grieve not for the disbelieving folk.
    SHAKIR: And if they had kept up the Taurat and the Injeel and that which was revealed to them from their Lord, they would certainly have eaten from above them and from beneath their feet there is a party of them keeping to the moderate course, and (as for) most of them, evil is that which they do. … Say: O followers of the Book! you follow no good till you keep up the Taurat and the Injeel and that which is revealed to you from your Lord; and surely that which has been revealed to you from your Lord shall make many of them increase in inordinacy and unbelief; grieve not therefore for the unbelieving people.


    OK, now to the questions. First off, the Muslims I have talked to so far seem to reject the Bible out of hand, especially after the above, why is it that? If your answer is that the Bible is corrupted and untrustworthy, when did this falsification take place?

    Please be thorough and specific in your answers. If you claim, for example, that the Bible has been changed in some way, if at all possible, please provide specific examples of it and not just something you think is the case but have no actual example of it.

    .
     
  3. chuck010342

    chuck010342 Active Member

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    good job here, I will watch this thread.
     
  4. Cordoba

    Cordoba Well-Known Member

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    Hello Hogcaller:

    Muslims believe in all Divine Books from God, in their original form, starting from the "Suhuf" revealed by God to Prophet Abraham peace be upon him, The Torah revealed to Prophet Moses peace be upon him, The Psalms revealed to Prophet David peace be upon him, The Injil revealed to Prophet Jesus peace be upon him, and The Qur'an revealed to Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him.

    We believe that all of God's prophets and messengers since Noah and Adam till God's final prophet Muhammad peace be upon them all, preached the same basic message from God which is Monotheism.

    Unfortunately, some man-made changes were introduced to the earlier scriptures and this was because of one important reason: the Divine Revelations before The Qur'an were never accessible to the public.

    In all ages, you will find that a select group of Rabbis and Priests had the monopoly of the scriptures, and the public was informed of what the elite wanted to reveal. This continued till the Council of Nicea in the year 325 when a decision was taken by The Pauline Church to adopt the trinitarian doctrine, despite the strong opposition of The Early Unitarians who followed the authentic teachings of Jesus of pure Monotheism.

    The Qur'an on the other hand was never a monopoly of a small group of elites. Why?

    1- First it was memorized by heart by hundreds of the companions of Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him. Till today, we have Muslim children as young as 8 years old who know The Qur'an by heart.

    2- The Qur'an was written in the lifetime of The Prophet, peace be upon him, and was guarded till less than 20 years after the Prophet passed away it was compiled in a unified Book by the third Caliph, Uthman ibn Affan.

    3- A copy of this very first written Qur'an is still available today which remains unchanged till today.

    4- Another important factor which helped preserve The Qur'an intact is the "tarawih" (night prayers) in Ramadan held each year for the last 14 centuries. These are special night prayers held in congregation in all major mosques around the world where the whole Qur'an is recited from memory by the leader of the prayers, and where the general public corrects him if he misses a word either from memory or from the written copies of the Qur'an which are available with all Muslims.

    All the best.
     
  5. Qabandi

    Qabandi Member

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    QUOTE : The Quran calls the Torah and the Injil “the Book of Enlightenment,” “the Scripture giving light,” “the illuminating book.”

    God in the verses is talking about the original injil and torah cous we all know the bible tuday is not 100% same as it was some 1000 years aggo , and all muslims beleave that God sent others befour Mohhamed Peace Be Upon Him and befour the Quran thats it.

    And by the way it is not only muslims who say the bible is currupted but chrstian scholars .
     
  6. HOGCALLER

    HOGCALLER Active Member

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    Chuck,

    Thanks! I hope we all learn alot.
     
  7. HOGCALLER

    HOGCALLER Active Member

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    Cordoba,

    You say: “We believe that all of God's prophets and messengers since Noah and Adam till God's final prophet Muhammad peace be upon them all, preached the same basic message from God which is Monotheism

    Reply: the first thing you need to know is that I do not believe in the Trinity nor do I believe that the Bible teaches the Trinity. So please do not try to use the Trinity as a proof of a problem with the Bible.

    Second, you should know that this thread is as a result of a discussion that brought many questions to my mind but were off topic to flysky’s thread: What do Muslims think of Jesus? So I started this new thread. That thread is long and getting longer but you might enjoy reading it also.

    You say: “Unfortunately, some man-made changes were introduced to the earlier scriptures and this was because of one important reason: the Divine Revelations before The Qur'an were never accessible to the public

    Reply: I specifically requested that you supply examples to backup such statements. Is that too much to ask? You saying it is so does not make it so! One of my major complaints in talking to Muslims, so far anyway, is that they seem to make sweeping general accusations without a shred of proof to back them up.

    Next, “the Divine Revelations before The Qur'an were never accessible to the public.” That statement is not true in my opinion. Not only was the Bible generally available to the Jews it was available in multiple languages and that was the case hundreds of years before Jesus arrived on the scene. The reason the Jews had translated the Bible into the common language of their day was expressly so that the common man could read it. The Christians invented the codex in the second century so that they could easily transport and use both the Hebrew and Greek language scriptures. You obviously know nothing about the many thousands of copies, from complete to only fragments, which were available and still are available today (and I am referring to those that predate the seventh century) and that history records as being available in all the major ancient libraries but also to the common Jew and Christian in their local houses of worship and also in private home and well before the seventh century. For example: (Acts 28:23-24) “They now arranged for a day with him, and they came in greater numbers to him in his lodging place. And he explained the matter to them by bearing thorough witness concerning the kingdom of God and by using persuasion with them concerning Jesus from both the law of Moses and the Prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some began to believe the things said; others would not believe.”

    However, for the sake of argument let’s say your statement is true. My reply would be, “So what!” It was not the public that was protecting and preserving God’s Words, it was God himself. So your claim is not only wrong but is pointless!

    Cordoba, I do appreciate the information you provided about the Quran and its history, very informative. But what did or did not happen to the Quran since it was written does not prove anything, one way or the other, about the Bible. It is like me telling you that the fact that the Hebrew copyists did not rely on memory but rather counted every letter of every section and scrupulously compared them makes their work more accurate than that of the Quran’s adherents relying only on their memories, so what! That would mean nothing to you. It would be pointless because you would eventually get around to telling me that it matters not what the humans did or did not do, it matters only what God did or did not do. Do you see my point?

    My point in the long setup to my questions is that even the Quran itself testifies to the accuracy and trustworthiness of the Bible, or at least to major parts of it, up to the seventh century.

    .
     
  8. HOGCALLER

    HOGCALLER Active Member

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    Qabandi,

    You say: “God in the verses is talking about the original injil and torah cous we all know the bible tuday is not 100% same as it was some 1000 years aggo , and all muslims beleave that God sent others befour Mohhamed Peace Be Upon Him and befour the Quran thats it.

    And by the way it is not only muslims who say the bible is currupted but chrstian scholars .”


    Reply: I specifically requested that you supply examples to backup such statements. Is that too much to ask? You saying it is so does not make it so! One of my major complaints in talking to Muslims, so far anyway, is that they seem to make sweeping general accusations without a shred of proof to back them up.

    Next, I do not know what you think you know but I do know that your statement is 100% wrong. But even if it was right then why does the Quran tell Muslims to believe them and also to seek out help and testimony from Jews and Christians in understanding their (Muslim’s) own book?

    Third, I am not talking to so-called Christian scholars I am talking to Muslims. Please read my first few posts in flysky’s thread: What do Muslims think of Jesus?

    No let me do better than that and repost some of the exchanges so that you understand. The following is what I said to flysky, the replies posted to The Truth and Mujahid Mohammed, and then my reply that will also answer your comments regarding so-called Christian scholars.

    First my reply to flysky:



    flysky,



    I have been to the “askmuslims” web site and I have read some of it and much of what I did read does not have the ring of truth to me. Please excuse me for being blunt but I have been trying hard to ask questions that were not confrontational and have gotten no-answer answers as replies. As for that web site’s answers, they only raised more questions in my mind and are not satisfying me either. Again, please excuse me for being blunt but I really would like to understand the Muslim way of thinking about things but the answers found on that web site smack of propaganda and you are not being forth coming with your answers to my questions.



    Perhaps a better way to put it is: “Actions speak louder than words.” The actions of Muslims, as I see and understand them from media reports, have no resemblance at all to the words and sentiments of that web site. The slanted, best-foot-forward answers found on that site do not conform with what I see, hear and understand of what is going on between Muslims and Muslims, between Muslims and Jews, between Muslims and “Christians,” and between Muslims and every other religion. Can you please help me to understand why that is?



    Based on what I see, hear and understand, your answer, “The answer is simple Quran was not interpreted so they won't be any misinterpretation,” is especially troubling to me. Let me explain why: If I understand your answer correctly, all the actions I see and hear about almost daily in the media being conducted by Muslims that can read and speak Arabic cannot be based on “any misinterpretation” because the “Quran was not interpreted,” correct? That means that those actions must be based on what the Quran actually does say, correct? That is very troubling to me!



    The actions reported in the media certainly do seem to conflict with what that web site says the actions of Muslims are supposed to be. Can you please explain the contradictions between the words and sentiments found on that web site and the actions and demonstrated attitudes of many, if not most, Muslims nowadays?



    Now the replies to the above posted by The Truth and Mujahid Mohammed:



    The Truth said:



    If you are a good student and i'm not and we are at the same school studying the same books so if i fail do i supposed to blame the books or to blame myself?

    this is my persoanl answer for your question.




    Mujahid Mohammed said:



    You must judge Islam off of our beloved Prophet and his companions you cannot judge a religion off of the people you see today. Allah says the Prophet and his companions are the best and you should judge Islam from the best. When Allah is talking about the believers he is talking about them then not us. If we try to carry ourselves as they did then Allah will give us that title. It is the same I would not judge Christianity off of some Christians today. Would you judge Christians off of David Koresh, the IRA, Hitler, Bush. I do not think you would so you can not judge us on brothers you see today. We find real Islam from there example and these are the individual we must try and imitate. You would not follow the student if the teacher gave you all the references to do it yourself



    Finally, my reply that goes to your comments:



    The Truth, Mujahid Mohammed, flysky, et al.,



    Two excellent answers that beg this question:



    If so, then why do Muslims reject, blame and judge “the books,” the Holy Scriptures, which preceded the Quran by pointing to the actions and beliefs of those who claim to be believers but who really are not and even do far worse than that by claiming that God’s protection of His Word has failed so that His guidance provided within them has become changed and untrustworthy?

    Perhaps one thing that Christians and Muslims can agree upon is that the Devil does not want God’s guidance to reach man. Therefore, it is reasonable to assume that Satan and his cohorts, including so-called Christians and so-called Muslims, would try to have the Holy Scriptures corrupted so that mankind might be misled and turned away from God. Over the centuries, various individuals have tried to add to certain verses. But did they succeed in corrupting God’s words? Would God allow them to do so? No! Throughout the Scriptures, he affirms that he would preserve his words. “The green grass has dried up, the blossom has withered; but as for the word of our God, it will last to time indefinite,” says Isaiah 40:8. (See also 1 Peter 1:24, 25.) Likewise, the Quran says: “There is none that can alter the Words (and Decrees) of God.” (Al-Anam [6]:34) Thus, all attempts to change God’s words have failed because it is inconceivable that God would permit any manipulation of his books.

    .
     
  9. john313

    john313 warrior-poet

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    i did not read all of your post due to time constraints and being tired, but i, being muslim, agree with your point. i believe there is a lot of truth in the bible and it should be read by all muslims(the old testament(torah), writings of the prophets, and gospels (injeel(which has also been described just as the aramaic matthew rather than the 4 gospels of the NT)) anyway, i would not recommend the writings of paul or his associates to anyone). i believe the problem is most muslims say it is corrupt because that is what someone else told them to believe, and being stubborn, like most people, will not change their minds and admit being wrong. Islam teaches us to seek Ilm(religious/scientific knowledge) wherever we can find it. completely rejecting the bible without reading it is not a very good way to seek knowledge. i have read most of it and it fits in with the teachings of the Quran quite well.
    again, i believe the bible should be read and at least pondered upon by all muslims, as should any religious book before it is rejected. Allah gave (most) people the ability to reason and to distinguish right from wrong. which of the Lord's favors will you deny?
    i hope that made sense, i am tired.
     
  10. HOGCALLER

    HOGCALLER Active Member

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    john313,

    Thank you for your thoughts. Tired or not, they were well said!

    I too think that ALL that desire to submit to God’s will and to follow God’s guidance should at least have genuine respect for any other individual trying to do the same, even if we do not see eye to eye about doctrine. The Bible, and not many actually obey what it says even though they claim they do, takes it a step further and commands that we have love for ALL, even our enemies.

    As for the various holy books, I agree with you. Unfortunately there are getting to be so many and, as you say, “due to time constraints and being tired” most of us cannot spend the proper amount of time reading, studying, and pondering the book we claim to follow much less devote time and effort into all the others too. Based on your comments, I think we agree that that is not the best of situations.

    So the question becomes, what do we do about that less than desirable situation? The Bible contains some advice that may apply. It is spoken by Jesus in his famous Sermon on the Mount and is found at Matthew 7:20, “Really, then, by their fruits you will recognize those [men].” That advice works really well when we are talking about individuals and even organizations made up of men. But when we try to apply it to the holy books it does not seem to work as well. It is very hard to discern what the fruits of a holy book are because we can find so many individuals and groups that do not actually follow what the book says even though they claim they are. Perhaps you too will agree that seems especially to be the case with the Bible and Quran.

    So, since it seems, for the moment anyway, that no one is trying to answer the questions from above, is it possible for you and I to come up with “fruits” or criteria for identifying or recognizing what really is a Holy Book and, by extension, what is not? Do you think it is possible to devise a set of criteria that would serve as a shortcut in that process so that at least some books could be eliminated from the list of those needing consideration? And do you think such a shortcut would be practical?


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  11. gtrsgrls

    gtrsgrls Member

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    How long did it take you to write all that?
     
  12. HOGCALLER

    HOGCALLER Active Member

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    gtrsgrls,

    You ask: "How long did it take you to write all that?"

    I am generally not very fast in properly expressing myself and I probably do too much editing, so my original post in this thread took me parts of three days before I was happy with it. Probably 6-8 hours total time but that included doing background reading on Muslim sites to make sure that my understanding of the verses quoted was not completely off the reservation. I have been reading the Koran/Quran, off an on, since the early 70's. It is so much easier to research and study it now with the help of all the Muslim web sites. I have always enjoyed talking with people of other religions.
    .
     
  13. chuck010342

    chuck010342 Active Member

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    another good point
     
  14. HOGCALLER

    HOGCALLER Active Member

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    chuck010342,


    Thanks again.


    I have wanted to have an in-depth discussion with a Muslim for a little while and had been mulling these and other questions over in my head in anticipation of it. Of course, in my own mind I thought they were valid and good points—but doesn’t everybody that comes to a debate forum to post—even so, I never expected that they would bring the discussion to an end the way they have. The sad part is that is not what I wanted and intended; I was looking forward to a lively discussion so that could learn a bit about what they believe and even more about what makes them tick. So much for the best laid plans of mice and men.

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  15. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    Excatly :) but the problem is as you can read in the verse when Christiand reject the Quran the SAME when the Jewish rejected the Injil.



    I request from you to read chapter 2 from Quran and you will understand.

    I have no idea from where did you came with the idea that Muslims reject the Gospel (Injil).

    [3:7] He sent down to you this scripture (Quran), containing straightforward verses - which constitute the essence of the scripture - as well as multiple-meaning or allegorical verses. Those who harbor doubts in their hearts will pursue the multiple-meaning verses to create confusion, and to extricate a certain meaning. None knows the true meaning thereof except GOD and those well founded in knowledge. They say, "We believe in this - all of it comes from our Lord." Only those who possess intelligence will take heed.

    The Most Important Commandment

    [3:18] GOD bears witness that there is no god except He, and so do the angels and those who possess knowledge. Truthfully and equitably, He is the absolute god; there is no god but He, the Almighty, Most Wise.

    Submission: The Only Religion

    [3:19] The only religion approved by GOD is "Submission." Ironically, those who have received the scripture are the ones who dispute this fact, despite the knowledge they have received, due to jealousy. For such rejectors of GOD's revelations, GOD is most strict in reckoning.

    [3:20] If they argue with you, then say, "I have simply submitted myself to GOD; I and those who follow me." You shall proclaim to those who received the scripture, as well as those who did not, "Would you submit?" If they submit, then they have been guided, but if they turn away, your sole mission is to deliver this message. GOD is Seer of all people.

    [3:21] Those who have rejected GOD's revelations, and killed the prophets unjustly, and killed those who advocated justice among the people, promise them a painful retribution.

    [3:22] Their works have been nullified, both in this life and in the Hereafter, and they will have no helpers.

    [3:23] Have you noted those who were given part of the scripture, and how they are invited to uphold this scripture of GOD, and apply it to their own lives, then some of them turn away in aversion?

    [3:24] This is because they said, "The hellfire will not touch us, except for a few days." They were thus deceived in their religion by their own fabrications.

    [3:25] How will it be for them, when we summon them on that inevitable day? Each soul will be paid for whatever it earned, without the least injustice

    As you can see God is warning people of the book from the fabrication they made and he is asking them to believe in the Quran which was confirming what the injil said before they fabricate and add new things in it.[/QUOTE]



    Read above.



    [114] Again (of old,) We bestowed Our favour on Musa and Harun,

    [115] And We delivered them and their people from (their) Great Calamity;

    [116] And We helped them, so they overcame (their troubles);

    [117] And We gave them the Book which helps to make things clear;

    (Quran-Chapter 37)

    God was mentioning Moses and Harun (Aron i guess in english) and the Torah make things clear but ONLY at that time.

    [2:159] Those who conceal the Clear (Signs) We have sent down, and the Guidance, after we have made it clear for the People in the Book, on them shall be Allah's curse, and the curse of those entitled to curse.

    God is saying that the people of the book are hiding somthing they had about Quran and about Moahmmed (PBUH) so as you can see even the people of the book didn't add so they will hide the signs they have about the last prophet Moahmmed.
     
  16. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    Dear HOGCALLER, these days i have final exams that's why you may find the delay in my answers whether here or in the other thread so i apologize for that and i'm replying to your questions and your posts the moment i got any free time.

    That's dosn't mean that we don't want to discuss but some people may be busy at certain time and they may delay in thier answer to you and you know.

    I hope that you will consider that. :)
     
  17. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    please wait for me to reply to the other posts as soon as possible in sha Allah if no other muslims come in here and reply to your posts that i admire and like alot. :)
     
  18. HOGCALLER

    HOGCALLER Active Member

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    The Truth,

    You say: “Excatly but the problem is as you can read in the verse when Christiand reject the Quran the SAME when the Jewish rejected the Injil.

    Reply: EXCUSE ME! I do not reject the “Book of Enlightenment!” Yes, there are some, even many, that do, so what? You and I have already agreed that that is the case and also agreed to the fact that there are many “Muslims” that also reject the Quran, shown and proved by their actions. You are in such a rush to condemn your ‘older brothers,’ the Jews and Christians, that you cannot see the point.

    Again, let me spell it out for you. The Quran calls all the writings that are now collected all together into one book “the Book of Enlightenment.” Is the Quran lying? You have told me that such a thing is not possible. Why would the Quran call all those words of God collected together in the Bible, “the Book of Enlightenment” if it were not true? When you answer those questions for me—DO NOT CLOUD THE ISSUE WITH WHETHER ON NOT HUMANS CORRECTLY BELIEVE AND FOLLOW THOSE WORDS OF GOD—that is not the point. All “Muslims” do not follow the Quran properly just as the Jews and Christians have not all properly followed their holy writings, so what! That matters not! The point is this: The Quran itself says those Words of God are what? That’s right, “the Book of Enlightenment.”

    You say: “I have no idea from where did you came with the idea that Muslims reject the Gospel (Injil).”

    Reply: It comes from what they say and do! I will be happy to spell it out for you later, but just for the moment, it is off topic.

    You say: “[3:7] He sent down to you this scripture (Quran), containing straightforward verses - which constitute the essence of the scripture - as well as multiple-meaning or allegorical verses. Those who harbor doubts in their hearts will pursue the multiple-meaning verses to create confusion, and to extricate a certain meaning. None knows the true meaning thereof except GOD and those well founded in knowledge. They say, "We believe in this - all of it comes from our Lord." Only those who possess intelligence will take heed.”

    Reply: Do you not remember what I said to you in the other thread? Let me refresh your memory: “My replies in this thread have been made so as to show that most of the things commonly said by Muslims against other religions and their holy writings can also rightly be applied to themselves, that is to say, to “Muslims” and the “Quran.” Let me say it again in a different way: Any and everything you say against my religion and my book can rightly be applied to you and your book. So the question is: Shall we just stand here and talk AT the other or shall we instead try to talk TO each other and try to walk the path together?”

    NOW LET ME GET TO THE POINT: So when and why did God change his mind? Long before that verse of the Quran was written, in the Word of God, “the book of Enlightenment,” God said: “For I am Jehovah; I have not changed. (Malachi 3:6) He also inspired David to say: “Give thanks to Jehovah, call upon his name, Make known among the peoples his dealings. 2 Sing to him, make melody to him, Concern yourselves with all his wonderful works. 3 Make your boast in his holy name. Let the heart of those seeking Jehovah rejoice. 4 Search for Jehovah and his strength. Seek his face constantly. 5 Remember his wonderful works that he has performed, His miracles and the judicial decisions of his mouth, 6 O you seed of Abraham his servant, you sons of Jacob, his chosen ones. 7 He is Jehovah our God. His judicial decisions are in all the earth. 8 He has remembered his covenant even to time indefinite, The word that he commanded, to a thousand generations, 9 Which [covenant] he concluded with Abraham, And his sworn statement to Isaac, 10 And which [statement] he kept standing as a regulation even to Jacob, As an indefinitely lasting covenant even to Israel, 11 Saying: “To you I shall give the land of Ca´naan As the allotment of your inheritance.” (Psalm 105:1-11)

    (Psalm 19:7-8) The law of Jehovah is perfect, bringing back the soul. The reminder of Jehovah is trustworthy, making the inexperienced one wise. 8 The orders from Jehovah are upright, causing the heart to rejoice; The commandment of Jehovah is clean, making the eyes shine. 9 The fear of Jehovah is pure, standing forever. The judicial decisions of Jehovah are true; they have proved altogether righteous.

    (1 Corinthians 14:33) “God is not the author of confusion

    Now you and the Quran are telling me the God deliberately does author confusion and that he forgot all His words from before the Quran! You and the Quran are telling me that God has deliberately authored words design to be misleading! You and the Quran are telling me that God went back on His words and promises and instructions contained in the Bible! “So when and why did God change his mind?”

    In “the Book of Enlightenment” we are told to “Remember his wonderful works that he has performed.” But the Quran “forgets” His “wonderful works.” All Jews and Christians can tell you that there were ten plagues upon the nation of Egypt in addition to those involving the rod and the hand performed just for the benefit of Pharaoh. In “the Book of Enlightenment” we find God’s promise: “To you I shall give the land of Ca´naan As the allotment of your inheritance.” And the Quran also tells us about God’s promise:

    017.101-108
    YUSUFALI: To Moses We did give Nine Clear Signs: As the Children of Israel: when he came to them, Pharaoh said to him: "O Moses! I consider thee, indeed, to have been worked upon by sorcery! 102 Moses said, "Thou knowest well that these things have been sent down by none but the Lord of the heavens and the earth as eye-opening evidence: and I consider thee indeed, O Pharaoh, to be one doomed to destruction!" 103 So he resolved to remove them from the face of the earth: but We did drown him and all who were with him. 104 And We said thereafter to the Children of Israel, "Dwell securely in the land (of promise)": but when the second of the warnings came to pass, We gathered you together in a mingled crowd. 105 We sent down the (Qur'an) in Truth, and in Truth has it descended: and We sent thee but to give Glad Tidings and to warn (sinners). 106 (It is) a Qur'an which We have divided (into parts from time to time), in order that thou mightest recite it to men at intervals: We have revealed it by stages. 107 Say: "Whether ye believe in it or not, it is true that those who were given knowledge beforehand, when it is recited to them, fall down on their faces in humble prostration, 108"And they say: 'Glory to our Lord! Truly has the promise of our Lord been fulfilled!'"
    PICKTHAL: And verily We gave unto Moses nine tokens, clear proofs (of Allah's Sovereignty). Do but ask the Children of Israel how he came unto them, then Pharaoh said unto him: Lo! I deem thee one bewitched, O Moses. 102 He said: In truth thou knowest that none sent down these (portents) save the Lord of the heavens and the earth as proofs, and lo! (for my part) I deem thee lost, O Pharaoh. 103 And he wished to scare them from the land, but We drowned him and those with him, all together. 104 And We said unto the Children of Israel after him: Dwell in the land; but when the promise of the Hereafter cometh to pass We shall bring you as a crowd gathered out of various nations. 105 With truth have We sent it down, and with truth hath it descended. And We have sent thee as naught else save a bearer of good tidings and a warner. 106 And (it is) a Qur'an that We have divided, that thou mayst recite it unto mankind at intervals, and We have revealed it by (successive) revelation. 107 Say: Believe therein or believe not, lo! those who were given knowledge before it, when it is read unto them, fall down prostrate on their faces, adoring, 108 Saying: Glory to our Lord! Verily the promise of our Lord must be fulfilled.


    Continues below.
     
  19. HOGCALLER

    HOGCALLER Active Member

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    SHAKIR: And certainly We gave Musa nine clear signs; so ask the children of Israel. When he came to them, Firon said to him: Most surely I deem you, O Musa, to be a man deprived of reason. 102 He said: Truly you know that none but the Lord of the heavens and the earth has sent down these as clear proof and most surely I believe you, O Firon, to be given over to perdition. 103 So he desired to destroy them out of the earth, but We drowned him and those with him all together; 104 And We said to the Israelites after him: Dwell in the land: and when the promise of the next life shall come to pass, we will bring you both together in judgment. 105 And with truth have We revealed it, and with truth did it come; and We have not sent you but as the giver of good news and as a warner. 106 And it is a Quran which We have revealed in portions so that you may read it to the people by slow degrees, and We have revealed it, revealing in portions. 107 Say: Believe in it or believe not; surely those who are given the knowledge before it fall down on their faces, making obeisance when it is recited to them. 108 And they say: Glory be to our Lord! most surely the promise of our Lord was to be fulfilled.

    Again, let me ask you: “So when and why did God change his mind?” Why does HE say, “Do but ask the Children of Israel how he came unto them,” if they are liars and exaggerators about the events that happened in Egypt? Why does God repeatedly tell Muslims to ask the Jews and Christians about things if they have mishandled and corrupted his Words? Obviously God considered the “Book of Enlightenment” and its possessors trustworthy at the time He made those statements! One more time let me ask you: “So when and why did God change his mind?” OR could it be God has not changed and it is Islam and Muslims that have changed? That seems much more likely to me!

    Why is that God promised the land of Canaan, “the land (of promise),” to the Jews, yet the Muslims are shedding blood and causing disorder as they strive to take it away? Again, let me ask you: “So when and why did God change his mind?”

    007.137
    YUSUFALI: And We made a people, considered weak (and of no account), inheritors of lands in both east and west, - lands whereon We sent down Our blessings. The fair promise of thy Lord was fulfilled for the Children of Israel, because they had patience and constancy, and We levelled to the ground the great works and fine buildings which Pharaoh and his people erected (with such pride).
    PICKTHAL: And We caused the folk who were despised to inherit the eastern parts of the land and the western parts thereof which We had blessed. And the fair word of thy Lord was fulfilled for the Children of Israel because of their endurance; and We annihilated (all) that Pharaoh and his folk had done and that they had contrived.
    SHAKIR: And We made the people who were deemed weak to mhent the eastern lands and the western ones which We had blessed; and the good word of your Lord was fulfilled in the children of Israel because they bore up (sufferings) patiently; and We utterly destroyed what Firon and his people had wrought and what they built.


    [7:138]And We caused the people who were considered weak to inherit the eastern parts of the land and the western parts thereof, which We blessed. And the gracious word of thy Lord was fulfilled for the Children of Israel because they were steadfast; and We utterly destroyed all that Pharaoh and his people has built and all that they had erected.

    That will be news to the Egyptians who rely on those very structures for so much of their tourist trade. And also to the archeologists who are studying those “great works and fine buildings” to this very day. Again, “So when and why did God change his mind?”

    Why is it that right in the middle of a recounting of God’s dealings with Pharaoh and the Jews and His deliverance and saving them out of Egypt he also mentions: 017.105 “And with truth have We revealed it, and with truth did it come; and We have not sent you but as the giver of good news and as a warner. 106 And it is a Quran which We have revealed in portions so that you may read it to the people by slow degrees, and We have revealed it, revealing in portions.” This is also the time when God instructed Moses to begin writing down God’s Words in the Torah. So the context of those words makes them apply equally to the words spoken by God to Moses and Israelites. So we find that the Quran is including the Torah as part of the true Words of God and that brings it under all the same restrictions and protections that apply to the latter portions of the Quran. In other words, all of God’s words are equal and equally protected and preserved. All of God’s true words are trustworthy and reliable. Is it not the Torah that was to be “read to” the people by Moses, the messenger of God, and did not the Torah get revealed in portions that Moses was instructed to read to the people while Mohammed certainly could not read the Quran to the people because he could not read or write? The words of those verse clearly apply to the Words, the Torah, given to Moses who could read and write and was instructed to write down God’s true words and to read them to the people.

    You say: “As you can see God is warning people of the book from the fabrication they made and he is asking them to believe in the Quran which was confirming what the injil said before they fabricate and add new things in it.”

    Reply: You insist on ignoring my point and questions! The point is that at least as late as the seventh century “the Book of Enlightenment” was trustworthy and reliable and contained no fabrication!! The Quran itself says so!! So when you claim otherwise you are contradicting what the Quran says!!

    Also, in “The Book of Monotheism,” which is part of his Sahih, Imam Al-Bukhari explains the meaning of the word “tahrif” as follows: “Tahrif means alteration. However, no one can alter any written character in a book of God. Tahrif was done to the text in the sense of twisting its meaning [misinterpreting it].” In his commentary on Al-Nisa [4]:46, Imam Al-Fakhr Al-Razi says: “The meaning of corruption (tahrif) is the introduction of vain doubt and wrong explanations and changing the word from its true meaning to a baseless sense by means of verbal tricks, as heretics do presently with the verses which contravene their own sect. This is the view that is more true.” In his commentary on Al-Maidah [5]:13, he says: “This corruption (tahrif) could be [1] false interpretation, and it could be [2] altering the written text. However, we have already shown that the first explanation is most probable, because it is impossible to alter the written text of a book that was handed down in unbroken and widespread succession.” Examples of twisting the meaning of God’s books can be seen in the interpretations that many religions give in support of their false beliefs.

    “The Book of Enlightenment,” the Holy Scriptures are indeed sound! Anyone who believes in the Quran must agree that the text of the Bible, the Holy Scriptures or “the Book of Enlightenment,” has not been corrupted. There can be no doubt that they are God’s Word, for the Holy Scriptures have not been changed since the time that the Quran said that the Torah and the Injil are “guidance and a light” and that “there is none that can alter the Words (and Decrees) of God.”

    Please answer my points and questions and PLEASE PROVIDE PROOF when you do! Remember these questions and the point they make? “Why should I consider the Quran differently than I consider the Book of Mormon? The Book of Mormon also declares itself to be the word of God! Should I believe it just because it says so and those who believe it want me to?” Just because you claim something is so does not make it so!! To me, the Quran claiming it is God’s word is no different than the Book of Mormon claiming it is God’s word. If the Book of Mormon says something am I to believe it just because it says so? Not likely! You must give me proof other than the Quran supposedly saying it. Of course the Quran does not say it, as I have stated and proved above, for all God’s Words are protected and preserved, “there is none that can alter the Words (and Decrees) of God.”



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  20. HOGCALLER

    HOGCALLER Active Member

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    The Truth,

    I was not trying to put you or anyone else down. I was only commenting on the fact that there were so few comments and that I regretted that. And I also was wondering if my questions were at fault. Please take all the time you need.

    One thing is certain, you are not the only Muslim posting on this forum or even in this thread and the others do not seem to be trying to answer my questions. Do not misunderstand, there is not particular problem in that--we all have busy lives--it is just that I was expecting more discussion.

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