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Quran & the book(bible)

Discussion in 'Interfaith Discussion' started by DontFearMe, Aug 26, 2004.

  1. DontFearMe

    DontFearMe Member

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    Greetings to all. A very interesting thought has occurred to me. So much talk exists of the oppression of women in Islam. Examples may include: rights of divorce, rights of inheritance, bearing witness, role of women in society, and etc. The most intriguing aspect is that the Christians who are propagating this issue refrain from looking into their own book. So I would like any Christian to look in their own book for me and tell me this: What rights of inheritance does the bible give to women, what rights of divorce does the bible give to women, what rights of property ownership does the bible give to women, what rights of protection against abuse does the bible give women, what protection against slander does the bible give to women? I'll stop here although I have many more.

    This is a comparative look between the book (bible) and Al Quran which i will lay out further when time permits me. Oh and I'd appreciate a refernce from the bible when you quote from it. Much thanks and peace.
     
  2. Rex

    Rex Founder

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    If you wish to quote from the bible try our new little tool. I haven't released it yet but here it is to play on:

    bible verses
     
  3. true blood

    true blood Active Member

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    I really like how the women is talked of in the bible. Especially towards the end of proverbs like a woman's merchandise is good[exciting sexually+attractive]:her candle goeth not out by night[god is ever present in life] She layeth her hands to the spindle and her hands hold the distaff. She stretcheth out her hand to the poor; yea she reacheth forth her hands to the needy[helpful and charitable] She is not afraid of the snow for her household:for her household are clothed with scarlet[double garments,abundance] She maketh herself coverings of tapestry; her clothing is silk and purple[royalty] Her husband is known in the gates, when he sitteth among the elders of the land[credit to husband] She maketh fine linen and selleth it; and deliverth the girdles unto the merchant[helps the family budget] Strength and honor[respect] are her clothing; and she shall rejoice in time to come. She openeth her mouth with wisdom; and in her tongue is the law of kindness[James 3:4] She looketh well to the ways of her household, and eateth not the bread of idleness. Her children arise up and call her blessed[indicates relationship]; her husband also and he praiseth her. Many daughters have done virtuosly[acquired or gotten riches], but thou excellest them all. Favor[sweet talk without God] is deceitful, and beauty is vain; but a woman that respects the Lord, she shall be praised. Give her of the fruit of her hands; and let her own works praise her in the gates.

    Along with cool scripture like this about women, a husband is suppose to love his wife with the same love that Christ has loved us.
     
  4. Rex

    Rex Founder

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    If you wish to quote either the bible or the quran click on resources at the top of the page, I have included these tools for us.
     
  5. painted wolf

    painted wolf Grey Muzzle

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    1 Cor.14:34-36 "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."

    Eph.5:22-24 "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing."

    1 Tim.2:11-15 "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing

    22:5
    The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.

    yeah... women had it good in the bible... ;)

    wa:do
     
  6. DontFearMe

    DontFearMe Member

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    Well I have just read through these responses and since it seems that True Blood is a christian, this thread is directed towards you or any other Christian. However you did not answer my questions one bit. If you can read it again and then provide your refernces for me from the bible as to make it easy for me to research them. Rex Admin good little tool you got there, I tried it.

    Again, i had very specific questions, unanswered so far.
     
  7. christian-knight

    christian-knight New Member

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    hey don't fear me, i don't know what pipe you've been smoknig, women have no rights in islam, look at iraq, they are treated like crap, ****EDITED BY MAIZE**** and the bible preaches that women should be respected, thank god i'm a white anglo saxon american
     
  8. christian-knight

    christian-knight New Member

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    hey the bible gives me special powers dont fear me, ***EDITED BY MAIZE*** thank god jesus made me a prophet
     
  9. DontFearMe

    DontFearMe Member

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    christian knight when you exemplify Jesus through your words and actions, please come and talk , until then save yourself the embarassment. This forum is for serious discussion.
     
  10. true blood

    true blood Active Member

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    Painted Wolf could you give us your interpretation of that passage?
    1 Cor.14:34-36 "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."

    It may mean some different to each of us and since I represent Christ allow me to speak. Corinthians is written to give reproof to the Church because of its not following the truth of Romans. That passage is written to wives of leaders in the church, not women in general. And for their wife not to interrupt or run their mouth of to their husbands. These husbands are annoited men and their women are to behave in respectful ways, especially while the church leader, who is her husband, is teaching. Makes sense to me. Perhaps in your household, when your husband is teaching whatever it is he teaches to people, he allows you to interrupt him and say "that's not what it means" or "that's not what you said last night", etc..among the other people he's in the midst of teaching. This particular passage is reproof of doing that.

    Painted Wolf are you teaching us? And what do you mean women? These verses pertain to WIVES. Now Christ said that a man was to love their WIFE as He loved the Church. SO YES WIVES HAD IT REAL GOOD to be loved as Christ loved the Church.

    DontFearMe: Listen to my words carefully. All your questions are answered because if Men loved their Wives as Christ loved the Church none of those things you ask would even happen. There would be forgiveness, sharing, love etc...those things you speak of are part of the current culture and men failing to love their wives with the love that Christ had for us. Hope that helps.
     
  11. DontFearMe

    DontFearMe Member

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    Thank you for your attempt. But it does not help. You are using a lot of 'ifs' and avoiding the specifics I want. Jesus was a jew raised in jewish society with specific laws governing various aspects of life, Some of which I put in my first post. Now with all of these various laws in mind, I have inquired of only a few which I would expect Jesus to have contested at his time of rather confronted. He did confront divorce for example saying that only for adultery may a man divorce a woman. But what about the other laws? This post is also textual analysis between the bible and the quran.

    Specualting that loving women like Jesus loved the church w/e that means doesnt prove ur case or answer my question. I would like proof from ur book on my first post. Please no speculation or personal interpretation. Thanks
     
  12. painted wolf

    painted wolf Grey Muzzle

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    huh... I thought that woman ment woman.... and "it is not permitted unto them to speak" and " it is a shame for women to speak in the church" were pretty straitforward....

    when in church, shut up.... no talking, god doesn't want you to talk in his house, it is a place for men to talk and women to simply listen and nodd thier heads.
    no trying to be equil to a man in public or in private, especally not in church....

    wa:do
     
  13. true blood

    true blood Active Member

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    I guess you just don't understand. Cor. wasn't written to all women in general but to the women who were married to the men who were teaching the church. It cannot mean all women were to not speak in the church because there were and there still is and will always be great women leaders of the church. The passage also means that the men aka husbands of those great annoited women who are ministers unto the church(body of christ) are not to publicly question their wives while she's teaching but rather to shut up and wait till they are alone at home. Then the spouse can raise her or his questions. Not make a public "scene" while he/her is teaching.

    DontFearMe: Perhaps you should just read the Bible to find out your answers. I think Jesus would rather have a man forgive his wife of adultry rather then divorce. But divorce laws and everything else you asked about depend on the laws of the land in the culture you live in. If you want to know Jewish laws you probably shouldln't be asking Christians. Christians believe Jesus Christ was the end of the law, however one should respect the man-made laws in the country they live in. The point of being christian is to act and do the things that Christ did and I don't know where Christ said anything about divorce laws.
     
  14. painted wolf

    painted wolf Grey Muzzle

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    Please tell me who these great women leaders of the Biblical church were.... far as I know women were not allowed to be priests/ministers in the bible and for a woman to want to be one was forbidden.

    wa:do
     
  15. true blood

    true blood Active Member

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    I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh and your sons and daughters shall prophecy...and on my servants and my handmaidens. So is God's spirit upon only men? This passage says men and women. What about Deborah of the bible? She was a ruler and a judge of the Israelite people, a prophetess and a poet, led an army into battle. Didn't Deborah and another woman named Jael because of their boldness and craftiness led the Israelites to overcome the Canaanites and have peace in the land. All through the New Testament I see women with important roles in aiding the spread of Christianity. It was women who were first given the word that Jesus was risen from the dead. An industrious business woman, Lydia, is recorded as the first convert to Christianity in Europe and then she taught others. What about Priscilla? All throughout the New Testament women are given credit for spreading and teaching the Gospel. Women clearly had status with Jesus. More importantly, Jesus regarded women as fit for delivering news about himself to other men. The Bible's message of the unity and equality of believers was taken up by women and the Biblical accounts of the early church seem to place great emphasis on the role of women (Acts 5:14, 8:12, 16:13-15). Chloe (1 Cor. 1:11), Nympha (Col. 4:15). 1 Pet. 5:13 and 2 John 1 describes "elect" women.

    More specifically, women are listed as prophets in Acts 1:8-9 and 1 Cor. 11:5. Prophets clearly had authority to teach and preach (Ephesians 4:11-13, 1 Cor. 12:28). In Acts 18: 24-28, Priscilla, elsewhere listed as a "coworker" of Paul in Rom 16:3, has enough of Paul-like authority to explicitly rebuke and correct the teaching of Apollos (who elsewhere is described as an "apostle" in 1 Cor. 3-4). The "coworker" label clearly includes oversight and teaching authority (1 Cor. 16:16-18 and 1 Thess. 5:12). Other women bearing this role are Eudia and Synthiche (Phil. 4:2-3).

    Romans 16 lists 27 leaders, 7 of them women. I suggest you read Galatians 3:28: There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

    If your going to quote from the epistles at least know to whom and why they were written.
     
  16. Hope

    Hope Princesinha

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    Further on in Ephesians 5 are these verses:

    'So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies: he who loves his wife loves himself. For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church." Eph. 5:28-29

    I think that says a lot right there. I agree with true blood. Women are very esteemed in God's eyes!
     
  17. linwood

    linwood Well-Known Member

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    What law is Paul speaking of here?

    ";but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. "
     
  18. painted wolf

    painted wolf Grey Muzzle

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    but why shouldn't I wear pants... that one always bothered me...

    I like pants.

    what about female police officers and firefighers? Tough to do your job in a skirt.

    wa:do
     
  19. DontFearMe

    DontFearMe Member

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    DontFearMe: Perhaps you should just read the Bible to find out your answers. ]

    ~I am reading it.

    I think Jesus would rather have a man forgive his wife of adultry rather then divorce.

    ~Well in religious matters it usually doesn't come down to what you think, it comes down to what God has said.

    But divorce laws and everything else you asked about depend on the laws of the land in the culture you live in.

    ~Actually not in your bible.

    Christians believe Jesus Christ was the end of the law, however one should respect the man-made laws in the country they live in. The point of being christian is to act and do the things that Christ did and I don't know where Christ said anything about divorce laws

    ~He said to them, "For your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for unchastity, and marries another, commits adultery." (Mathew 19)

    So far I have yet to recieve any answer. I probably wont get any. However I do have time for one issue laid out and that is inheritance.

    Like I said I have been reading the bible and did find a verse on the inheritance rights given to women by God and it goes as follows:

    And you shall say to the people of Israel, `If a man dies, and has no son, then you shall cause his inheritance to pass to his daughter. (Numbers 27)

    This is the only verse on women's inheritance rights i have found in the bible. However the Quran says:

    From what is left by parents and those nearest related there is a share for men and a share for women, whether the property be small or large,-a determinate share.
    (Quran 4)

    As it goes on the division between a son and daughter is different:

    Allah (thus) directs you as regards your Children's (Inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females.....(Quran 4)

    So God in the quran gives women the right to inheritance even if she has brothers while the bible does not. Now one might say the division is unequal and at the surface it looks so. However, the man in the family is soley responsible for caring for the women in the family, and the family in general and his family as well. So, naturally he receives more not for himself, but for the expenditure of the family. The woman on the other hand does not have any responsiblity financially and the money she receives from her parents is hers alone and she may do what she will with it.

    More issues coming later. thanks
     
  20. true blood

    true blood Active Member

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    Galatians 3:28: There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
     
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